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Nickel
  • From:USA

Date Posted:19-11-2018 08:47:43Copy HTML

A free mind is a wonderful thing. Free minds have discovered the advances of medicine, science, and technology; have created great works of art, literature, and music; and have devised our rules of ethics and the laws of civilized lands. Tyrants who take over our thinking and enforce political, psychological, or spiritual ‘correctness’ by taking away our freedoms, especially the freedom of our minds, are the menace of today, tomorrow and all eternity.


a few notes about cults from Singer’s book, “Cults in Our Midst“:

  • Cults are defined by their methods and tactics, not their supposed beliefs. Cults and cult-like thinking always proliferate at times of great social upheaval, when people feel displaced.
  • Cults always serve a powerful elite, with recruits manipulated from above to profit those elites, who employ coordinated persuasion programs.
  • Cults always have a hidden agenda that is never exposed when recruiting. They isolate their recruits from other points of view in order to control and manipulate them.
  • Cults control language in order to blunt independent thought. They cultivate dependency, debilitation, deception, dread of separation, and desensitization in people, all of which makes it harder for them to walk away.
  • The main goal of a cult is simply to grow, grow, grow. There is no end in sight in terms of recruitment or fundraising or power.
  • Cults make a point of getting footholds in the institutions of society — including government, media, and education — in order to get mainstream credibility.
  • Cults are very organized in suppressing critics and criticism.


http://thefederalist.com/2018/11/19/recognize-cult-mindset-others/?utm_source=The+Federalist+List&utm_campaign=ebd0831323-RSS_The_Federalist_Daily_Updates_w_Transom&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_cfcb868ceb-ebd0831323-84045335


.................


I recall that some of you are peeved about political correctness, and I couldn’t understand how knowing something is offensive so you can avoid being offensive could grate on someone’s nerves.  The author argues that PC is a cult which astounded me until the whole brain washing idea sank in as well.  


I’ve been offended by the brainwashing accusation just for having served in the military, just for attending college, and just for becoming a city council member to which I usually respond, You obviously don’t know me!  And, they really don’t in most of those situations where the accusations have been made.  


Well, I like to believe that I’m not easily influenced, but the fact that Jim Jones and others succeed and I have not the vaguest idea how they managed it makes me wonder.  Were those people just weak minded lonely individuals swept away by the attention?  Or was it something so subtle that they were not aware.......


Go to the second link, the Federalist  has more information  than the book seller link.



What goes around, comes around.
govols Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:20-11-2018 12:57:28Copy HTML

Pretty much, from what I understand of the modern theories of the social sciences. We are what our cult(ure) molds us to be, and the humanities have been studying and practicing scupture for a few hundred years. 

_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:21-11-2018 01:34:37Copy HTML

A very long time ago, I happened to take an 8 hour bus ride seated next to an ex-Moonie.  She told me her entire story, from joining to leaving, and was later profiled in People magazine.  I couldn't possibly do that exchange justice, but in many ways it was similar to how a perfectly normal woman ends up being regularly beaten by her boyfriend/husband for years, possibly even ending in her death.   And by that, I mean their relationship didn't begin with him punching her...it began with him wooing her.   

Yekyua Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #3
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:21-11-2018 04:33:10Copy HTML

That's an apt analogy, I think, QZ.  The people who ended up rotting and bloated next to their children in a remote Guyanan jungle didn't join a cult, they joined a progressive, activist church, an exciting organization which had done a lot of good work to correct social ills, improve civil rights. The process was insidious and gradual.   


Along with the many accounts and revisitings on occasion of the 40th anniversary of Jonestown tragedy, a new book has been published by Jeff Guinn titled "The Road to Jonestown: Jim Jones and People's Temple".  Guinn also wrote about Charles Manson and Bonnie and Clyde - those who've read all comment this one is his best.  Praise by critics for extensive research, insight and journalistic integrity, he doesn't editorialize or inject himself in the rigorously detailed narrative.  A "non-fiction horror story" as another reader put it.  Depressing as hell, I'm sure, but I'd like to read it - maybe after the holidays.


Only a third of the book is devoted to the two years of in Guyana, and the last dreadful, desperate days - Guinn points out that it's impossible to determine how many willingly suicided, but evidence points to a fair percentage having been either coerced at gunpoint or actually murdered.  One of his goals was to correct some of the myths and misapprehensions about how the mass murder unfolded.  And the substance for the cyanide was Flavor-Aid.  Many of the younger people who reviewed book at Amazon had zero idea of grisly genesis of the phrase.  


An excerpt from one of the Amazon Reviews:

The lesson then, and it certainly applies today: when you listen only to one point of view, and surround yourself only with people who agree with you, you lose the ability to think for yourself. And the echo chamber becomes a trap. Whether it's religion, or politics, it's never a good idea.


As mentioned in another thread, Nickel, this topic (What IS a free mind, why do people apparently relinquish free thought, permit themselves to be commandeered and blindly follow tyrants) lends itself to a broader examination of the mechanics of cultural transmission.  Ultimately to the philosophical question of agency or free will in choosing a given world view.  Too much to tackle right now, but it's a question worth exploring ... :-) 




O ye wha are sae guid yoursel', Sae pious and sae holy, Ye've nought to do but mark and tell Your neibours' fauts and folly! -- Robert Burns (Address to the Unco Guid)
_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #4
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:22-11-2018 01:36:27Copy HTML

That's an apt analogy, I think, QZ.  The people who ended up rotting and bloated next to their children in a remote Guyanan jungle didn't join a cult, they joined a progressive, activist church, an exciting organization which had done a lot of good work to correct social ills, improve civil rights. The process was insidious and gradual.  





Exactly.  


And I don't think it is a stretch to say there is a parallel to the ILLIBERBAL progressive movement.  I've said for some time they have all the relgious zeal of zealots with blind faith in their demigods.  I've no doubt they believe strongly in correcting social ills, advancing civil rights, etc., but the devil is in the details.  Most of those details are irrelevant to the VISION of utopia to which they have sworn their fealty.   As in any cult, the demigods dictate the moral law and are always allow to exempt themselves from the mandates for their worshippers.  


As for the PC element, it isn't courtesy though that is how it is peddled.  All "religions" have their own "language"  which convey meaning to the devotees, but not necessarily the same meaning to the non followers.  Being "politically incorrect" equates to blasphemy in the Church of Government.  The "correct terms" signal to devotees that you are either converted by choice or subjugation, either way is exercised power to control the masses.  


The entire Trump phenomena boils down to rebellion of the infidels.  It's unfortunate...to me anyway...that Trump is another demigod, who underneath the blasphemy is not materially different. 

_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #5
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:22-11-2018 01:47:50Copy HTML

Just wanted to add that what defines "cult" in my mind is the excessive devotion to a human being raised to divine status with zero indication of supernatural ability.   In many of these cults, the leader displays mental illness which makes it all the more sad and all the more likely that the devotees end up seriously harmed or dead or willing to harm/kill others for the cause.  
dunjuz_not Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #6
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:22-11-2018 01:54:41Copy HTML

And who would you put on the cross?


Serious question.


edited;

(Or, maybe I'm thinking its a singular problem when its really totally not.)

We're all prisoners of conscious.~
_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #7
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:23-11-2018 03:36:52Copy HTML

Perhaps you could elaborate, Dunj.
Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #8
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:23-11-2018 08:18:56Copy HTML

"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
dunjuz_not Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #9
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:23-11-2018 10:54:06Copy HTML

Who would you support as Pres? 

We're all prisoners of conscious.~
Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #10
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:24-11-2018 09:15:35Copy HTML

Not that you’re asking me, but no one goes on the cross. I like to walk in the other guys shoes for a while; usually makes up my mind. Bernie Sanders is my choice for President, for now. Again, not that you’re asking me. Muslims that try to change rather than adapt to our country are a cult in essence. Posted another thread topic on Canadian response to them, although I didn’t run that through Scope, etc. could be false....lollipops. All those born again Baptists with no respect for my faith are a cult. The Mormons who relentlessly knock on my door....must I post a sign? Haven’t seen Jehovas witnesses for a few years, not sure why.....just content with it. I don’t think of any religion as a cult, but some members within them definitely use the strategies, which are eerily similar to those of an abusive husband or wife.
Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #11
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:24-11-2018 09:26:06Copy HTML

Singer’s list of the six conditions practiced by cults: Keep the person unaware of what is going on and how he or she is being changed a step at a time. Control the person’s social and/or physical environment; especially control the person’s time. Systematically create a sense of powerlessness, fear, and dependency in the person. Suppress old behavior and attitudes by manipulating a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences. Instill new behavior and attitudes by manipulating a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences that induce group-approved behaviors. Put forth a closed system of logic and an authoritarian structure that permits no feedback and refuses to be modified except by leadership approval. ...................... Yep, seems familiar. I’m from New England originally so from the Puritans on my family has been dealing with cults....sometimes of their own making like their other miseries. 3,000 miles away in the west works well for me...not being from around here also has advantages.
dunjuz_not Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #12
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:24-11-2018 10:42:38Copy HTML

I like Bernie too. I don't know how realistic any of his proposals are, but it would be great to see his momentum and energy allowed to flourish.

We're all prisoners of conscious.~
_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #13
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:24-11-2018 10:52:03Copy HTML

Who would you support as Pres? 


I’d support a classical liberal, but I’d vote for someone at least pretending they are.  Last election my first choice was Fiorina, then Rand Paul, both lasting about ten minutes in the primaries. 

Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #14
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:25-11-2018 02:12:35Copy HTML

Tulsi Gabbard sounds like she'll make it some day.

"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #15
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:25-11-2018 05:07:10Copy HTML

......."being Saudi Arabia’s bitch is not 'America First.'" That’s a pretty catchy phrase, Gabbard used on Trump.
govols Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #16
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:25-11-2018 05:53:15Copy HTML

Keep the person unaware of what is going on and how he or she is being changed a step at a time.

Isn’t this just the way most of us exist while becoming? Think of the experience of being brought up. One step at a time we acclimate to the culture within which we exist, not really by intent but by osmosis. We’re not really conscious of it; we are simply adjusting to the complexity of the system as we are expected to be more and more responsible for maintaining it.

Control the person’s social and/or physical environment; especially control the person’s time.

That’s we currently do with mandatory education, and organized activities, rather than allowing for an exploratory childhood.

Systematically create a sense of powerlessness, fear, and dependency in the person.

It’s all about the patriarchy, oppression and victimization. The only cure for the oppression olympics is for a social change that provides for all individuals the basic needs for well-being.

Suppress old behavior and attitudes by manipulating a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences.

Instill new behavior and attitudes by manipulating a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences that induce group-approved behaviors.

Put forth a closed system of logic and an authoritarian structure that permits no feedback and refuses to be modified except by leadership approval.

Enough. See what I mean about all of us, and “Cult”ure?


Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #17
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:27-11-2018 04:21:28Copy HTML

Yes, I see what you mean. However, culture results from a complex network of social interactions, and it’s fluid without any agenda. A cult on the other hand is determined by person(s) in control of social interactions and it’s fixed, usually with a hidden agenda. Maslow’s hierarchy of needs just hasn’t caught on among our rugged individualists. Despite this view of ourselves, we generously lend a hand for no apparent reason because, well, we know what it feels like, or we’ve been there, done that, and hate to see someone else go through it. Our schools are run by local boards, so, sure they can have a cult like effect, a team spirit, but students graduate. You don’t get to graduate from a cult, your life comes from the top down. Organized activities are, overall beneficial, so long as time allows for some freedom. “Mom, I’m bored.” LOL. Sign them up for something...... I usually put them to work. After they turned ten, they had to make dinner once a week....I was a Cub Scout den mother and den leader coach. My daughter was the only one to complain, and she’s still complaining about the work involved for Thanksgiving. Lost track of this thread......stop typing!
mickeyrat Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #18
  • From:USA

Re:Are You, Are We Members of a Cult?

Date Posted:02-12-2018 10:34:30Copy HTML

 That's an apt analogy, I think, QZ.  The people who ended up rotting and bloated next to their children in a remote Guyanan jungle didn't join a cult, they joined a progressive, activist church, an exciting organization which had done a lot of good work to correct social ills, improve civil rights. The process was insidious and gradual. 


For both of you, a book either might enjoy...


https://www.amazon.com/Season-Witch-Enchantment-Terror-Deliverance/dp/1439108242/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1543789899&sr=8-2&keywords=season+of+the+witch


Yekyua's characterization above is perfect, and the above book brings out that fact. There were a number of progressives, not least of which the martyred George Moscone, who owed their political careers to Jim Jones and People's Church...there is still some question as to how exactly Moscone defeated John Barbagelata in the mayoral election that year.


If I were to make a distinction between People's Church and the Moonies, I would say that most of those who joined people's church did so EXACTLY because of its social mission, while most of those who joined the Moonies were just lost and lonely souls looking for ANYTHING to latch onto.

~Oh, I wish it would rain.~ --The Temptations
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