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Tomlapaz
  • From:USA

Date Posted:29-01-2018 12:47:07Copy HTML

Evolution also being a faith system, this forum seems to be a good fit for this.   Some notes taken some time ago, cannot remember from who or where.


Three kinds of Evolution (as to how the term gets used in a variety of ways)

  1. Change over time: Of this there is observable proof
  2. Micro evolution: small changes within each kind.   Of this there is observable proof
  3. Macro evolution: transmutation of "species".  Darwinism.  No proof of all.

Two Pillars of Evolution

  1. Life from Non life:  No proof at all
  2. Transmutation of 'species': No transitional forms.   Missing links are missing

For evolution to stand, both of these foundational points  must be proven to have occurred.  As it is, neither one has any proof at all.   Note: 'species' may be better replaced, depending, by 'genus' or perhaps even higher.    See link discussion below on definitions.

Irreducible Complexity

The living cell is super complex and only works when all of the complex parts are assembled and functioning.   The removal of one of the parts would not make the cell less functional, it would not function at all.  The complexity of the cell could not have evolved one step at a time, it is irreducibly complex.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

In biology, a species is the basic unit of biological classification and a taxonomic rank, as well as a unit of biodiversity, but it has proven difficult to find a satisfactory definition. Scientists and conservationists need a species definition which allows them to work, regardless of the theoretical difficulties.

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #31
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:10-02-2018 10:02:51Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

Someone is not reading well - yes you provided links to what you 'think' were evidence for evolution.

And you 'think' that because you are faithful to this dogma.   Thus reason cannot prevail with you.

No disagreement over that.


We have a follower of a book initiated by the fantasies of pre bronze age nomads from Mesopotamia and the Levant.
The adherent claims that a scientist follows dogma. He ignores all the evidence the scientist supplies because it contradicts the fairy stories he believes in.  The scientist's evidence is very reasoned while the theist's are lacking anything, just referral to the Torah.

"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #32
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:10-02-2018 02:48:34Copy HTML

That is your claim - yet, I am still waiting for you to back up one of your examples that supposedly support such in another thread.

Yet, you refuse.    Instead, you are committed to your dogma and superstition, and frankly, I have to accept that no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind at this point.

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #33
  • From:Unknown

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:11-02-2018 04:55:15Copy HTML

 Someone is not reading well - yes you provided links to what you 'think' were evidence for evolution.

And you 'think' that because you are faithful to this dogma.   Thus reason cannot prevail with you.

_________________


You are correct someone is not reading well.  Got a mirror?  You are also correcdt it is difficulkt to reason with a liar like yourself, but I try.

It has nothing to do with what I "think".

Here is the definition of evolution:

The change in allele frequency (genes) over time such that distant progeny (many generations) are morphologically and genetically distinct from their ancestors.

We have seen this in the tangible world. In other words, the existence of evolution is fact, not what I or anyone else "think".

Here are facts that have proven evolution to be true. You can ignore them all and later claim that I never presented them as you normally do.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/evolution-watching-speciation-occur-observations/

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

http://www.darwinwasright.org/observations_speciation.html

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/100201_speciation

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_45

The debate has never been (at for at least 150 years) whether evolution is true or not. The debate is only about the details.  You are not in the debate at any level.  You are outside living in a very tiny world of lies.



Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #34
  • From:Unknown

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:11-02-2018 04:56:29Copy HTML

 More direct evidence of evolution ...not belief...actual observations with our own eyes.  Measurements thathavenothing to do with "belief".

I never present any evidence though.  Sad. Select and google at will.  Many of these are online.


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Barton, N. H., J. S. Jones and J. Mallet. 1988. No barriers to speciation. Nature. 336:13-14.

Baum, D. 1992. Phylogenetic species concepts. Trends in Ecology and Evolution. 7:1-3.

Boraas, M. E. 1983. Predator induced evolution in chemostat culture. EOS. Transactions of the American Geophysical Union. 64:1102.

Breeuwer, J. A. J. and J. H. Werren. 1990. Microorganisms associated with chromosome destruction and reproductive isolation between two insect species. Nature. 346:558-560.

Budd, A. F. and B. D. Mishler. 1990. Species and evolution in clonal organisms -- a summary and discussion. Systematic Botany 15:166-171.

Bullini, L. and G. Nascetti. 1990. Speciation by hybridization in phasmids and other insects. Canadian Journal of Zoology. 68:1747-1760.

Butters, F. K. 1941. Hybrid Woodsias in Minnesota. Amer. Fern. J. 31:15-21.

Butters, F. K. and R. M. Tryon, jr. 1948. A fertile mutant of a Woodsia hybrid. American Journal of Botany. 35:138.

Brock, T. D. and M. T. Madigan. 1988. Biology of Microorganisms (5th edition). Prentice Hall, Englewood, NJ.

Callaghan, C. A. 1987. Instances of observed speciation. The American Biology Teacher. 49:3436.

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Clausen, J., D. D. Keck and W. M. Hiesey. 1945. Experimental studies on the nature of species. II. Plant evolution through amphiploidy and autoploidy, with examples from the Madiinae. Carnegie Institute Washington Publication, 564:1-174.

Cracraft, J. 1989. Speciation and its ontology: the empirical consequences of alternative species concepts for understanding patterns and processes of differentiation. In Otte, E. and J. A. Endler [eds.] Speciation and its consequences. Sinauer Associates, Sunderland, MA. pp. 28-59.

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Cronquist, A. 1978. Once again, what is a species? Biosystematics in agriculture. Beltsville Symposia in Agricultural Research 2:3-20.

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Feder, J. L., C. A. Chilcote and G. L. Bush. 1988. Genetic differentiation between sympatric host races of the apple maggot fly, Rhagoletis pomonella. Nature. 336:61-64.

Feder, J. L. and G. L. Bush. 1989. A field test of differential host-plant usage between two sibling species of Rhagoletis pomonella fruit flies (Diptera:Tephritidae) and its consequences for sympatric models of speciation. Evolution 43:1813-1819.

Frandsen, K. J. 1943. The experimental formation of Brassica juncea Czern. et Coss. Dansk. Bot. Arkiv., No. 4, 11:1-17.

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Galiana, A., A. Moya and F. J. Alaya. 1993. Founder-flush speciation in Drosophila pseudoobscura: a large scale experiment. Evolution. 47432-444.

Gottleib, L. D. 1973. Genetic differentiation, sympatric speciation, and the origin of a diploid species of Stephanomeira. American Journal of Botany. 60: 545-553.

Halliburton, R. and G. A. E. Gall. 1981. Disruptive selection and assortative mating in Tribolium castaneum. Evolution. 35:829-843.

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Karpchenko, G. D. 1928. Polyploid hybrids of Raphanus sativus L. X Brassica oleraceae L. Z. Indukt. Abstami-a Verenbungsi. 48:1-85.

Kilias, G., S. N. Alahiotis and M. Delecanos. 1980. A multifactorial investigation of speciation theory using Drosophila melanogaster. Evolution. 34:730-737.

Knight, G. R., A. Robertson and C. H. Waddington. 1956. Selection for sexual isolation within a species. Evolution. 10:14-22.

Koopman, K. F. 1950. Natural selection for reproductive isolation between Drosophila pseudoobscura and Drosophila persimilis. Evolution. 4:135-148.

Lee, R. E. 1989. Phycology (2nd edition) Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, UK

Levin, D. A. 1979. The nature of plant species. Science 204:381-384.

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Macnair, M. R. 1981. Tolerance of higher plants to toxic materials. In: J. A. Bishop and L. M. Cook (eds.). Genetic consequences of man made change. Pp.177-297. Academic Press, New York.

Macnair, M. R. and P. Christie. 1983. Reproductive isolation as a pleiotropic effect of copper tolerance in Mimulus guttatus. Heredity. 50:295-302.

Manhart, J. R. and R. M. McCourt. 1992. Molecular data and species concepts in the algae. Journal of Phycology. 28:730-737.

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Mayr, E. 1982. The growth of biological thought: diversity, evolution and inheritance. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA. McCourt, R. M. and R. W. Hoshaw. 1990. Noncorrespondence of breeding groups, morphology and monophyletic groups in Spirogyra (Zygnemataceae; Chlorophyta) and the application of species concepts. Systematic Botany. 15:69-78.

McPheron, B. A., D. C. Smith and S. H. Berlocher. 1988. Genetic differentiation between host races of Rhagoletis pomonella. Nature. 336:64-66.

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Mishler, B. D. 1985. The morphological, developmental and phylogenetic basis of species concepts in the bryophytes. Bryologist. 88:207-214.

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Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #35
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:11-02-2018 05:38:54Copy HTML

The change in allele frequency (genes) over time such that distant progeny (many generations) are morphologically and genetically distinct from their ancestors.

Is Yobbo's example in post 3 on the Wisdom teeth thread an illustration of that?  I want to see how well you understand this.

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #36
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:11-02-2018 06:37:51Copy HTML

In the wisdom teeth thread we are talking about change over a couple of centuries.  Evolution occurs over a much greater time frame, I simply noted that the reasons the author gave were in tune with evolution even though he doesn't want to believe that any more than you.
"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #37
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:11-02-2018 06:49:34Copy HTML

Still want to hear Skw's answer.  Meanwhile, given your above response, you may want to reword your reply over there.........
Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #38
  • From:Unknown

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:11-02-2018 11:03:53Copy HTML

 Is Yobbo's example in post 3 on the Wisdom teeth thread an illustration of that?  I want to see how well you understand this.

___


 I just posted probably several hundred examples of verified evolution observations from the scientific literature, demonstrating yet again that the existence of evolution by speciation is a fact....and what do you do?

Once again you try to change the subject by saying something irrelevant like "but what about the wisdom teeth in the other thread".  Who gives a shit?  It is proven. 

Evolution is a fact.  I gave you hundreds of examples of observations of speciation that result in the change of allele frequencies in populations over time, and eventually new species.

This is not something up for debate Tomas.  It is like saying that we know the moon exists.

Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #39
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:12-02-2018 12:26:53Copy HTML

Pretty dogmatic response there.


And Yobbo, I guess you are on  your own over there.  I will follow up.

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #40
  • From:Unknown

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:12-02-2018 03:26:39Copy HTML

 What is observed to occur is true Tomas.  It is proven.  Speciation of changing allele frequencies resulting in morphological differences in progenitors is proven to be true.  A statement of fact is not dogmatic. 

It may be dogmatic to conclude you will most certainly ignore the many hundreds of examples I just provided.  That is my opinion, and I state it as fact because you will surely have nothing to say about a single example I provide from the scientific literature. .......  Because you are a lying dishonest pile of shit.

Thank you for proving my point.



Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #41
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:12-02-2018 03:36:09Copy HTML

What is observed to occur is true Tomas.  It is proven

And that is where your problem is on this topic - much of what is claimed not actually having been observed.  As summarized in the OP.

The 2nd problem of yours is not seeing that due to dogmatism.

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #42
  • From:Unknown

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:12-02-2018 03:37:22Copy HTML

 And that is where your problem is on this topic - the 2nd problem of yours is not seeing it due to dogmatism.

___________________


 Evolution is a fact not because of dogmatic statements,  It is a fact because it has been recorded and observed, many times in many tangible ways...for which I posted above and you ignore.   

You are saying it is dogmatic to demand that grass is green just because I have measured it and observed it to be green. Grass is green.  Saying so is not dogmatic.  Evolution is real, proven, fact....saying so is not dogmatic.

No statements from authority required....just a look at the data......oh thats right......you don't ever look at the science I post, in that way you can continue to lie and say it does not exist.

What is it like to be a lying sack of shit?

Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #43
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:12-02-2018 03:47:33Copy HTML

Just to clarify another point - animal to man evolution could (for argument sake) be true - still does not take away from you embracing it from a dogmatic POV.


Dogma  is not always wrong.

But in this case.   It is.  

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #44
  • From:Unknown

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:12-02-2018 05:55:43Copy HTML

 

Just to clarify another point - animal to man evolution could (for argument sake) be true - still does not take away from you embracing it from a dogmatic POV.

________________________

There is dogmatic point of view.  There is accepting the reality of the tangible, observable, measurable, repeatable data, or this is denying reality, like you.

Reminder:  I posted a shitload of studies of observed evolution to which you ignored and continue to claim I post no evidence and my position is dogma.

That is what we like to call "a lie" in reality-land.

You are a liar to protect your fairy tale beliefs.  How sad.

Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #45
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:13-02-2018 06:37:02Copy HTML

Look, seriously, I don't expect you to see the errors of you ways here.

If you could not even see your errors with the dictionary (or perhaps was simply too proud), I don't expect currently to make headway against your entrenched dogma.

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
Bogus0Pomp Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #46
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:13-02-2018 06:25:42Copy HTML

Pfft.

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z "If you can read these 26 letters, there is nothing about the universe that you can't learn." -- Lambros D. Callimoahos
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #47
  • From:Unknown

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:13-02-2018 10:00:42Copy HTML

 Look, seriously, I don't expect you to see the errors of you ways here.

____


Reminder:  I posted over 100 examples of verified tangible, measured, corroborated and repeated observations of evolution occurring in real life...as in reality.

Tomas continues to ignore the scientific studies I posted and say I have not posted any evidence, am in error, and just don't get it.

A person doesn't get much more delusional than this folks.

Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #48
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:14-02-2018 04:23:14Copy HTML

Image may contain: text
"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #49
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:17-02-2018 09:02:06Copy HTML

Hey, Yobbo, out of curiosity - did anyone see that happen?  The event your cute little photo represents?

Thinking of updating actually the OP which actually touches upon that.  May be worth a separate thread.   Will give it some thought there.

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
Bogus0Pomp Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #50
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:17-02-2018 09:09:53Copy HTML

PFFFT

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z "If you can read these 26 letters, there is nothing about the universe that you can't learn." -- Lambros D. Callimoahos
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #51
  • From:Unknown

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:22-02-2018 04:37:12Copy HTML

 Hey, Yobbo, out of curiosity - did anyone see that happen?  The event your cute little photo represents?

____


No one has ever seen the dark side of the moon.  Is there no way to gather evidence that it exists?

You are an idiot Tomas.

I posted 100s of examples of proven observations of evolution, so Tomas moves the goalpost and requires that for it to be true, a human must observe a fish evolving into an air breathing animal.

Since we didn't see the singularity, I suppose that didn't happen either.  Plus....places on earth that have not yet been seen by men don't exist.

You have to be a special kind of lying insane to be Tomas.


Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #52
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:23-02-2018 08:30:26Copy HTML

No one has ever seen the dark side of the moon.  Is there no way to gather evidence that it exists?

Is that something that happened in the distant past?   Or something that happens today (which would make it quite not the same thing I was noting).

But more to the point - there is a lot of wishful thinking in Yobbo's cartoon.   We do not have that with the dark side of the moon.

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
Bogus0Pomp Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #53
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:23-02-2018 04:25:57Copy HTML

And Tom's vortex of posting meaningless random bullshit spins up.

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z "If you can read these 26 letters, there is nothing about the universe that you can't learn." -- Lambros D. Callimoahos
Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #54
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:23-02-2018 09:18:21Copy HTML

But more to the point - there is a lot of wishful thinking in Yobbo's cartoon.   We do not have that with the dark side of the moon.

You apology for a thinking human, evolution was already eons in progress when that might have happened. It was a comment on human  relations, not evolution.  I posted it as light entertainment.
"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #55
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:23-02-2018 11:58:41Copy HTML

That is good - because none of you guys can probably actual detail the differences on the scientific points between young earth creationism and naturalistic evolution (there being several positions, but to keep it simple for you all).
Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
Bogus0Pomp Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #56
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:24-02-2018 12:48:44Copy HTML

 

 
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z "If you can read these 26 letters, there is nothing about the universe that you can't learn." -- Lambros D. Callimoahos
Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #57
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:25-02-2018 02:31:32Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

That is good - because none of you guys can probably actual detail the differences on the scientific points between young earth creationism and naturalistic evolution (there being several positions, but to keep it simple for you all).

It doesn't matter how many positions you can enumerate (although you didn't bother to produce one) because they are all bollocks.
"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #58
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:25-02-2018 05:46:02Copy HTML

I understand your dogmatism - in fact, that is what is probably behind the truth of the statement below for each of you.


none of you guys can probably actual detail the differences on the scientific points between young earth creationism and naturalistic evolution (there being several positions, but to keep it simple for you all).

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #59
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:26-02-2018 06:54:28Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

I understand your dogmatism - in fact, that is what is probably behind the truth of the statement below for each of you.


none of you guys can probably actual detail the differences on the scientific points between young earth creationism and naturalistic evolution (there being several positions, but to keep it simple for you all).


Who wrote the words of the preceding "sentence"?  It is so ungrammatical that I'm not sure what is meant.
There are no scientific agreement concerning "young earth creationism" which tries to contradict science.
"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #60
  • From:USA

Re:Evolution: Short summary

Date Posted:27-02-2018 02:05:04Copy HTML

So, in other words,  you don't know and have not even bothered to investigate.

Ok.

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
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