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alaskaone
  • From:USA

Date Posted:15-03-2018 07:35:21Copy HTML

In his Breakthrough essay, Pinker spells out a key assumption of ecomodernism. Industrialization “has been good for humanity. It has fed billions, doubled lifespans, slashed extreme poverty, and, by replacing muscle with machinery, made it easier to end slavery, emancipate women, and educate children. It has allowed people to read at night, live where they want, stay warm in winter, see the world, and multiply human contact. Any costs in pollution and habitat loss have to be weighed against these gifts.”

Pinker contrasts the can-do ecomodernist spirit with “the lugubrious conventional wisdom offered by the mainstream environmental movement, and the radicalism and fatalism it encourages.” We can solve problems related to climate change, Pinker argues, “if we sustain the benevolent forces of modernity that have allowed us to solve problems so far, including societal prosperity, wisely regulated markets, international governance, and investments in science and technology.”

The bulk of Pinker’s essay consists of documentation of how we've handled environmental threats. We have reduced our rate of population growth; made agriculture, transportation and other key industries more energy-efficient; and increased the acreage of marine and terrestrial preserves. Here is a typical passage:

“Since 1970, when the Environmental Protection Agency was established, the United States has slashed its emissions of five air pollutants by almost two-thirds. Over the same period, the population grew by more than 40 percent, and those people drove twice as many miles and became two and a half times richer. Energy use has leveled off, and even carbon dioxide emissions have turned a corner. These diverging curves refute both the left-wing claim that only de-growth can curb pollution and the right-wing claim that environmental protection must sabotage economic growth and standard of living.”


Try as I might, that nuance was either incomprehensible to the opposition or perhaps ridicule and mockery are the only forms of humor they are capable of.  I don't know.

I don't actually believe it's possible for humanity to exert control over global climate.  Even the most optimistic projections of the effects of what controls the radical environmentalists proposed were of such minor consequence as to be difficult to actually measure.

But, I do think it might be a good idea to continue research in that direction.  Earth has suffered mass extinctions in the past due to meteor strikes, volcanoes, and interstellar dust clouds.  It might come in handy to be able to increase global temperatures should we pass through a dust cloud or one of our super-volcanoes pop off.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:15-03-2018 09:15:11Copy HTML

So, given that it has been measured, do you accept that global warming is a fact? 
I assume that if you accept this reality then what you doubt is that humanity has had much influence on it.
What effect mankind has caused has been measured too.
Do you deny
this?
"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:15-03-2018 10:21:56Copy HTML

Reply to Yobbo

So, given that it has been measured, do you accept that global warming is a fact?
"None of that means climate change doesn't occur.  Of course it does.  Sometimes it's beneficial, sometimes not.  Sometimes it's beneficial in one geographic location, detrimental in another."
 
I assume that if you accept this reality then what you doubt is that humanity has had much influence on it.
"In reality, my arguments weren't that climate change doesn't happen but that the IPCC is a corrupt organization with a specific agenda.  That governments across the globe were also jumping on the AGW bandwagon for the power and money that wagon could give them... expand bureaucracies and increase taxation."

What effect mankind has caused has been measured too. Do you deny
this?
Yes.

Did you even read the o.p.?
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Aprildaze Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #3
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:15-03-2018 11:28:59Copy HTML



Good article, Alaska.  Without industrialization, most of us would be living lives like the pioneers of America did, no source of heat except wood, no electricity, no life-saving medicines and procedures, no running water, no hot water coming from a faucet, no refrigeration except in winter, no indoor toilets.  No cars.  No phones.  







If you permit yourself to become too open-minded, your brains could fall out.
Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #4
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 02:22:36Copy HTML

Regardless of the causes, we have been experiencing global warming for decades.
So all the deniers can point to is that the warming is part of a cycle and man had nothing to do with it.
Which, frankly, is a fairy tale.  Human activity is having the effect of increasing warming.
"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
easyrider123 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #5
  • From:Norway

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 02:44:10Copy HTML

yobbo, you are arguing with mindless boobs. 

The conservative and integrity thing to do in life, which has been known and agreed upon for centuries, is that when we go into untouched nature we as thinking humans have the responsibility to care for the nature we find. We are responsible to leave it as it was found, if not even cleaner than we find it. Basic common sense for responsible human behavior. Very simple and correct premise. 

Until the industrial age we hadn't done too much damage, but once the industrial age took off the destruction and pollution of our beautiful ecosystem has been raped and plundered beyond recognition. This includes what we have done to the air, the water, the ground and even deep within the earth, all have been plundered without responsibility or integrity that we were responsible for. 

The saddest thing is, almost all of it was and is unnecessary. We forgot our good principles, and replaced them with greed and self interest. 

Like all liars and users they deny and point fingers everywhere but at themselves. April and alaska are ignorant of even the most basic simple principles of leading a respectful and considerate life. Totally clueless, as are the  majority here. ppfffttt............

         Related image
THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable. Be honest and frank anyway.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #6
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 03:24:35Copy HTML

Reply to Yobbo

Regardless of the causes, we have been experiencing global warming for decades.
So all the deniers can point to is that the warming is part of a cycle and man had nothing to do with it.
Which, frankly, is a fairy tale.  Human activity is having the effect of increasing warming.

So.... you didn’t read anything.   A racist and lazy.  Nice.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Hayekian Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #7
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 03:25:44Copy HTML

 Neither yobbo nor easyrider read the opening post.  Nowhere in the opening post was climate change denied.

Try reading it again to understand what was being said - I'd like to see both of your opinions on what the opening post was about.
Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #8
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 03:53:46Copy HTML

I agree so what good does it do to post an article that does not deny global warming is  happening and by mankind, of course it does by the author himself but not by the person who posted the thread and that he denies any global warming by humans, whose author is also talking about "regulations." What the author has is an issue with the IPCC results not global warming and humans and why Alaska posted it as a positive argument for his 'cause', I don't know why, it certainly wouldn't have been what I would have chose!
Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #9
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 04:10:08Copy HTML

I was talking to Alaskaone, not the author of the article s/he posted. 
"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #10
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 04:16:20Copy HTML

That was easy, Alaska posted the thread and took an opposite opinion of the author, doesn't  work out so well does it.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #11
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 04:59:22Copy HTML

What are you two talking about?

I've been arguing the exact same thing Horgan is saying, for decades.

Edited because I turned into mickeyrat.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #12
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 04:35:16Copy HTML

That was a good OP.

I am sorry some chose to respond without reading it (or perhaps reading it with care).

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
Hayekian Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #13
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 05:29:42Copy HTML

 They clearly do not understand what you are saying, alaskaone - perhaps you can summarize your position in 3 or 4 sentences.  Others at least partially agree with your positions - including Dr. Bjorn Lomborg.
Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
litman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #14
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 05:46:01Copy HTML

   I happen to agree with the lead article but not the response to it.  Yes our scientists have mitigated a lot of global warming.  Where I disagree is with his conclusions that we can just leave it up to the scientists.  Those regs he admitted to have also helped slow global warming a tiny fraction and we need much more regs to protect this world. So while I may disagree with his assumptions I completely disagree with Alaska on his interpretation of the lead article.
Just as the John Birchers went away so will the tea party
mickeyrat Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #15
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 06:56:32Copy HTML

Yeah, it appears to me that this is an article that damns with faint praise. First, we concede that climate change is real.

Then,

 I, for one, have detailed in my own clumsy way some of the absurdities of the IPCC and how it (a branch of the UN) is biased toward increasing UN authority under the climate change umbrella.

Of course, that's his assumption, not a fact of the matter. Moreover, it is the logical fallacy of poisoning the well, "because the IPCC is biased, you can't trust anything they say".  

None of that means climate change doesn't occur.  Of course it does.  Sometimes it's beneficial, sometimes not.  Sometimes it's beneficial in one geographic location, detrimental in another.

Try as I might, that nuance was either incomprehensible to the opposition or perhaps ridicule and mockery are the only forms of humor they are capable of.  I don't know.

Well, with all due apologies to the dumbass, he didn't SAY anything that we don't already know. EVERYONE concedes that climate change occurs, the question is how much of it is AGW, and if the percentage that is AGW is sufficient to demand a response.

Simply saying that climate change is occurring, that some places it will do harm and others good is so obvious a statement that one wonders why he would even bother writing it...EXCEPT as a prelude to then poisoning the well. Other than that he deserves every bit of mockery and ridicule he gets for possessing such a keen perception of the obvious.


I don't actually believe it's possible for humanity to exert control over global climate. 

What does he mean by "control"? Nobody expects humanity to exert "control" over global climate, and no-one expects us to even to try, since to exert "control" we'd have to be able to control the sun's activity since it is integral to climate on this planet.

How, control and "affect" are two differing concepts. One can affect a process without necessarily controlling it, especially if one doesn't even know how successful that attempt will be. I think, again, this guy is trying to poison the well, "since we can't control the climate, why bother doing anything", whereas what those concerned about climate change would say would be "We can't control climate change, but we can certainly do things to affect, meaning lessen, AGW." Those are two different concepts.

Overall, I am ready to dismiss Mr. Horgan's article as nothing but a bunch of logical fallacies strung together with code words, the author being FULLY aware that those who read him are generally too uneducated to be able to see those fallacies and code words.

Edited because I turned into mickeyrat.

Only in your dreams.

~Oh, I wish it would rain.~ --The Temptations
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #16
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 08:19:57Copy HTML

On a related note - it seems that the general consensus is that some of the other planets in our solar system are experiencing warming also, yes?
Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
easyrider123 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #17
  • From:Norway

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:17-03-2018 11:21:13Copy HTML

The essay is a clumsy pile of excrement. It's so obvious in it's lame attempt to rationalize BS, and yes it is much the same flavor of BS that alaska has been putting out all along.

The facts are in, the only question remaining is how fast and how bad it might get. When 50 guys are pissing into the pool and you stop 3 of them, does this make everything OK? lol 

Anyway, that's why my answer went straight beyond the silly essay to the roots of the problem. You know.......reality! 
THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable. Be honest and frank anyway.
oldarmybear Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #18
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:18-03-2018 01:20:06Copy HTML

Reply to easyrider123

The essay is a clumsy pile of excrement. It's so obvious in it's lame attempt to rationalize BS, and yes it is much the same flavor of BS that alaska has been putting out all along.

The facts are in, the only question remaining is how fast and how bad it might get. When 50 guys are pissing into the pool and you stop 3 of them, does this make everything OK? lol 

Anyway, that's why my answer went straight beyond the silly essay to the roots of the problem. You know.......reality! 

After many years of reading you opinion, easy, I have concluded you that wouldn't know reality if it jumped up and bit you on the posterior...
easyrider123 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #19
  • From:Norway

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:18-03-2018 03:57:46Copy HTML

at ease gomer
THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable. Be honest and frank anyway.
DC3Cowboy Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #20
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:18-03-2018 04:06:49Copy HTML

I don't actually believe it's possible for humanity to exert control over global climate. 


What does he mean by "control"? Nobody expects humanity to exert "control" over global climate, and no-one expects us to even to try, since to exert "control" we'd have to be able to control the sun's activity since it is integral to climate on this planet.


If man can cause the climate to warm significantly as the left is charging, or cause the warming to stop warming as the left claims we can do by cutting CO2 emissions, then yes, that would be by definition, controlling our climate.

I agree that we are at the mercy of climate and not in control of it at all.


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. - Thomas Jefferson Molon Labe
easyrider123 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #21
  • From:Norway

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:18-03-2018 05:32:09Copy HTML

 when you're pissing in the pool you can stop it.  We can always control what we do, especially when what we do is going to adversely effect our ability to continue to live on this planet. 

Does it hurt OAB or DC? It must be a frustrating not to be able to comprehend science or even basic common sense. 
THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable. Be honest and frank anyway.
skrumpie Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #22
  • From:Argentina

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:18-03-2018 01:11:19Copy HTML

Reply to DC3Cowboy

I don't actually believe it's possible for humanity to exert control over global climate. 


What does he mean by "control"? Nobody expects humanity to exert "control" over global climate, and no-one expects us to even to try, since to exert "control" we'd have to be able to control the sun's activity since it is integral to climate on this planet.


If man can cause the climate to warm significantly as the left is charging, or cause the warming to stop warming as the left claims we can do by cutting CO2 emissions, then yes, that would be by definition, controlling our climate.

I agree that we are at the mercy of climate and not in control of it at all.



How can this not be seen?
Try to remember the kind of September when men weren't girls and girls weren't fellas..................
Bogus0Pomp Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #23
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:18-03-2018 05:30:31Copy HTML

By looking with non-partisan glasses.

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z "If you can read these 26 letters, there is nothing about the universe that you can't learn." -- Lambros D. Callimoahos
the49cfr Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #24
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:18-03-2018 05:34:02Copy HTML

"After many years of reading you opinion, easy, I have concluded you that wouldn't know reality if it jumped up and bit you on the posterior..."

LOL!
The world is a magical place full of people waiting to be offended by something.
mickeyrat Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #25
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:18-03-2018 07:27:42Copy HTML

Again, DC, because you are one of those uneducated folks, you don't know the English language well enough to understand the difference between controlling and affecting.

If I drop a brick on a speedometer, I can affect the speed of the car, but that doesn't mean I'm controlling it. 

Likewise, pumping billions of tons of hydrocarbons in the air is going to affect climate, but that doesn't mean it is controlling it. 
~Oh, I wish it would rain.~ --The Temptations
the49cfr Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #26
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:18-03-2018 07:51:36Copy HTML

"If I drop a brick on a speedometer, I can affect the speed of the car"

Say what?

Good grief. Every time you post, the IQ of this forum drops 20 points. You really shouldn't try to use any analogy relating to guns, cars, sports or women. You have proven that you don't know squat about any of them. 
The world is a magical place full of people waiting to be offended by something.
DC3Cowboy Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #27
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:18-03-2018 09:11:33Copy HTML

If I drop a brick on a speedometer, I can affect the speed of the car, but that doesn't mean I'm controlling it. 


If you actually believe that such a stupid statement as that is an acceptable analogy, then you shouldn't be crowing about being 'educated'.

On the other hand, chickens crow too, and they too are stupid. 
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. - Thomas Jefferson Molon Labe
Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #28
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:19-03-2018 01:39:18Copy HTML

Reply to the49cfr

"If I drop a brick on a speedometer, I can affect the speed of the car"

Say what?

Good grief. Every time you post, the IQ of this forum drops 20 points. You really shouldn't try to use any analogy relating to guns, cars, sports or women. You have proven that you don't know squat about any of them. 
What mickey wrote spelled it out perfectly clearly.   The fact that you don't understand is completely explicable.  You are feeble minded.
"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
the49cfr Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #29
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:19-03-2018 02:27:52Copy HTML

Dropping a brick on a speedometer....doesn't affect the speed of a car.

That's idiotic....as you also seem to be. This has got to be the most stupid group of leftist on the internet. 
The world is a magical place full of people waiting to be offended by something.
mickeyrat Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #30
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:19-03-2018 03:36:01Copy HTML

 lol. Says the person who took 10 years to get through college, 6 of them in remedial classes.

If you can't dispute the point, I suggest you let it go. Like the kneebone is connected to the legbone, the speedometer reflects the amount of pressure put on the accelerator. I'm sorry you're too slow to grasp that, but most leftists aren't. 

You were, I believe, one of those who thought that when Obama said "You didn't build that", he was talking about individual businesses, hmmm? I know DC was.

That's all, I think need be said. 

Now, if either of you would like to address the point the fact that affecting something doesn't necessarily mean controlling it, go ahead and do so. Otherwise, the rest of us can revel once again in your utter stupidity that you cannot grasp English. 
~Oh, I wish it would rain.~ --The Temptations
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