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alaskaone
  • From:USA

Date Posted:15-03-2018 07:35:21Copy HTML

In his Breakthrough essay, Pinker spells out a key assumption of ecomodernism. Industrialization “has been good for humanity. It has fed billions, doubled lifespans, slashed extreme poverty, and, by replacing muscle with machinery, made it easier to end slavery, emancipate women, and educate children. It has allowed people to read at night, live where they want, stay warm in winter, see the world, and multiply human contact. Any costs in pollution and habitat loss have to be weighed against these gifts.”

Pinker contrasts the can-do ecomodernist spirit with “the lugubrious conventional wisdom offered by the mainstream environmental movement, and the radicalism and fatalism it encourages.” We can solve problems related to climate change, Pinker argues, “if we sustain the benevolent forces of modernity that have allowed us to solve problems so far, including societal prosperity, wisely regulated markets, international governance, and investments in science and technology.”

The bulk of Pinker’s essay consists of documentation of how we've handled environmental threats. We have reduced our rate of population growth; made agriculture, transportation and other key industries more energy-efficient; and increased the acreage of marine and terrestrial preserves. Here is a typical passage:

“Since 1970, when the Environmental Protection Agency was established, the United States has slashed its emissions of five air pollutants by almost two-thirds. Over the same period, the population grew by more than 40 percent, and those people drove twice as many miles and became two and a half times richer. Energy use has leveled off, and even carbon dioxide emissions have turned a corner. These diverging curves refute both the left-wing claim that only de-growth can curb pollution and the right-wing claim that environmental protection must sabotage economic growth and standard of living.”


Try as I might, that nuance was either incomprehensible to the opposition or perhaps ridicule and mockery are the only forms of humor they are capable of.  I don't know.

I don't actually believe it's possible for humanity to exert control over global climate.  Even the most optimistic projections of the effects of what controls the radical environmentalists proposed were of such minor consequence as to be difficult to actually measure.

But, I do think it might be a good idea to continue research in that direction.  Earth has suffered mass extinctions in the past due to meteor strikes, volcanoes, and interstellar dust clouds.  It might come in handy to be able to increase global temperatures should we pass through a dust cloud or one of our super-volcanoes pop off.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #61
  • From:Unknown

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:20-03-2018 06:29:30Copy HTML

 I don't know why skrumpie thinks being called a woman is an insult.  I think women are pretty awesome.  Sometimes I wish I was my wife.

Oh well, let her think her worthless one-liners are meaningful as she makes the usual idiot of herself.

mickeyrat Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #62
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:20-03-2018 07:19:36Copy HTML

Reply to the49cfr

I though it was funny


 I though it was funny

You "though" it was funny? Do you not know the difference between thought and though?

See, two can play the game. The difference is that there will be MANY more instances where you make an ass out of yourself than I do with me.

Have fun scrutinizing every word you type to make sure it is grammatically correct, the proper word choice, and spelled correctly. Because if this is the game you want to play, I think your investment of self-checking time if going to FAR greater than mine.

Ready, set, go!

~Oh, I wish it would rain.~ --The Temptations
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #63
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:20-03-2018 11:46:12Copy HTML

I think we are all aware that, if there was just even a limited nuclear exchange, lets say between India and Pakistan, that the claim is that we would see changes in the climate worldwide.  Cooling would result it is said.


I am not aware of any folk here disputing such claims.   They may be incorrect claims (who wants to test it) - but if true, they are an example of the potential for mankind to exhibit a major affect on climate.


The question seems to be more - just how much of an effect is mankind having currently - is any of it beneficial - is it just adjusting the cycle that exists - and what can be done that is not a situation where the cure is worse than the disease.

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #64
  • From:Unknown

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:20-03-2018 11:50:42Copy HTML

Adjusted the cycle????   What on god's earth are you talking about?   Oh boy, thank God we polluted the shit out of this place, turns out it was beneficial.  Who knew?   Plus, the loss of the last male northern white rhino today could turn out to be a good thing as well. Too many endangered animals anyway...we just "adjusted the cycle".

mickeyrat Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #65
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:21-03-2018 01:22:15Copy HTML

Well, let's try it from the other end. What, tomas, is the worst case scenario you see if we do try to ameliorate the effects we've been having on the atmosphere. 

So far as I can tell, the concern most have is NOT that we will screw up the weather even worse, but, rather, that a) fossil fuel companies will be harmed (and a LOT of folks have them in their portfolios) and, more seriously, that if the US constrains itself to a standard of emissions, we might fall behind other countries willing to industrialize at ANY cost. 

One such example is China. In her case, the haste to industrialize has led to a ton of water issues, with damming at some ends (Three Gorges Dam) of the Yangtze River leading to real water problems for people in the area in terms of growing crops. 

The environmental impacts associated with large scale dams often have significant negative impacts on the environment. The Three Gorges Dam is no different. The creation of the dam and associated reservoir has impacts both upstreamfrom the dam and downstream.

While we might say that that China's problem her poisoning her own people

In addition, the Yangtze is the 4th largest sediment carrier in the world due to the proportion of arable land in its catchment, damming and erosion from land conversion. ... The Three Gorges Dam exacerbates water pollution by impoundingwaters, trapping sediment and increasing eutrophication.

the fact is that if she's willing to do this to her own people, she's hardly likely to care whether or not her air pollution is affecting the rest of us, especially if she sees an economic advantage to doing so. That it can doesn't seem to be a question--I seem to remember reading someplace, for example, that SF's very cold winter a couple of years ago was due to a huge forest fire in China that denuded so much forest that the SIberian winds had nothing to stop them sweeping the plains and oceans. 

So, specifically to the deniers, what specific problems do you foresee if we make some attempt to get as many countries as possible onboard, a la the Paris Accords, with cutting emissions, EVEN if we accept beforehand that not all countries will comply?


~Oh, I wish it would rain.~ --The Temptations
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #66
  • From:Unknown

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:21-03-2018 01:51:05Copy HTML

 The thing is, amelioration is simply using less, so it is unjustified to conclude the cure could be worse.   If we try crazy shit like you might see in the movies like Geostorm (loads of bullshit).  But at most in addition to using less, is sequestration, or putting the Carbon right back in the dinosaur sauce where it came from 
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #67
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:21-03-2018 03:39:39Copy HTML

Well, let's try it from the other end. What, tomas, is the worst case scenario you see if we do try to ameliorate the effects we've been having on the atmosphere. 


I think such has been discussed - one thing is wasting resources if it turns out we are not the significant factor in the effects on the atmosphere.   As noted, other planets have warmed also (though not necessarily all) - do we know why?

The other is doing something, as noted, where the cure is worse than the disease.   We could pick a place to explode nuclear weapons - to trigger the type of cooling that has been associated with it as on offset.   But - I think many would have reservations about approaching that way.


Sometimes in the desire to 'do something' we make a problem worse.  I remember an article posted sometime back -  about how (very general summation, been awhile), in response to Europe's approach to dealing with global warming, there was an increase deforestation of the Brazilian rain forest to provide the resources for Europe's approach.  Don't think that was worth it either.

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #68
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:21-03-2018 03:51:01Copy HTML

We are so far behind in taking care of business, I don't understand how it could be a waste. That is the part that particulary bothers me it often seems about money other than the actual acceptance, after all we all know we can do better and how could be cleaning the scene make it worse, that is like saying to me, a dirty house is acceptable.
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #69
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:21-03-2018 03:57:21Copy HTML

Climate change, and pollution, are two different topics, that do overlap, but are also independent of each other.

Let me ask you this - if resources were diverted away from health care to dealing with the perceived human contribution to climate change, and it turned out that the perceived human contribution was far from the major cause (let alone whether climate change is actually a threat or temporary) - the fact that folk lost out on health care would not seem to be a waste to you, Katie?

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #70
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:21-03-2018 04:51:48Copy HTML

What good is health care going to do you if your lungs are toast? Major is speculative as it appears minor isn't so good either. I'm no tree hugger or environmentalist but we are in trouble. You don't want to leave the grand kids debt but I would think the earth is just important as well and humans are neglectful they always have been for as long as white men have been here, the strip mining, tree desforestation or how about the dust bowl, we create our own disasters for money and lose. We are not kind to the earth that has given us so much and we will pay for it.
easyrider123 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #71
  • From:Norway

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:21-03-2018 05:12:12Copy HTML

katie ------- "We are not kind to the earth that has given us so much and we will pay for it."


It's just that simple!
THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable. Be honest and frank anyway.
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #72
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:21-03-2018 05:13:14Copy HTML

I don't understand how it could be a waste.


What good is health care going to do you if your lungs are toast?


I don't think you read my post correctly - so let me try this and rephrase your question, since you are claiming you don't understand how it 'could' be a waste.

What good is the sacrifice of health care if it turns out that human contribution to global climate change is currently minor, for example?  Or just a temporary adjustment?


Or lets ask it this way - if by the sacrifice of a few million lives, and only by that sacrifice, we can reverse global warming - would you sign on?

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #73
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:21-03-2018 06:05:38Copy HTML

Why would I have to sign on to something like that? And what good does it do to blow off either as if we have to make a choice between one or the other?
mickeyrat Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #74
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:21-03-2018 08:59:42Copy HTML

 What good is the sacrifice of health care if it turns out that human contribution to global climate change is currently minor, for example?  Or just a temporary adjustment?

and that may well be true. But we're not going to get there, tomas, unless people first accept that we can and are affecting the environment. When you have the first battle, to gain that acceptance, long past t he point when you should have been able to establish and move on, then we delay a serious convo on HOW to address it.

Although I don't mind, in theory, the idea of nuclear explosion, except that there might well be unintended consequences.


~Oh, I wish it would rain.~ --The Temptations
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #75
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:22-03-2018 03:08:53Copy HTML

I think I have no disagreement with your post there. 

I think denying we can have an effect on the climate is rather extreme position - but more to the point (since being extreme is not necessarily wrong) in error.


But, I wonder also if it is in part in reaction to the extreme that often comes with those insisting that the sky is falling in regard to this - and that those in that camp do not see that either.

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
mickeyrat Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #76
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:22-03-2018 03:53:02Copy HTML

And I in turn will be happy to agree that there are those on the other side who do go way overboard in their prescriptions. 

But articles like the lead OP don't really help. It's important that people take a stand against those who want to claim that it's an either/or proposition when it comes to "controlling" climate. My point in this thread has been to illustrate the deceptive use of language, that since we can't "control" the climate, we can't really do anything about our effects on the environment. 

What I would like to see from the rightwing in this thread is an admission that the OP author is fundamentally wrong in presenting his perspective, that it is not "rationality" to make the sort of claims he did. 

I also made two other criticisms, first his poisoning of the well to suggest that the UN is pursuing power, not true understanding, and that IPCC is biased such that nothing it says can be taken seriously. Nobody addressed that because of course alaska leads the pack in anti-UN crap, so it suits his political purposes to believe that the OP writer is accurate in his depiction of the UN/IPCC having nefarious motives. So now we don't have to listen to warnings not only because we can't control the climate, according to these lights, but also because the UN doesn't really care about the environment, is only pursuing world power, and of course we all know that power is evil. That's the theme that alaska sounds constantly, BUT IT IS A LOGICAL FALLACY.

This is the sort of stuff that drives liberals crazy. It's perfectly legitimate, in my mind, for conservatives to ask liberals how they propose to address the heart of your point: the cost/benefit ratio, how to make sure the net falls on the latter and not the former part of that. 

The thing that bothers me most about our conversations, and this goes to left and right, is our belief that because we identify as partisans of one side or the other, we must not criticize our side. The best example has to be Roy Moore, there are conservatives on this board who despite his DEMONSTRATED sleaziness, yet to the end said, "there is no proof, no pictures of him actually penetrating an underage girl."

How the hell can you get much lower than feeling compelled to defend a person like that SIMPLY because he has an (R) or a (D) by his name. 

Sorry, now I'm meandering, but it gets back to being willing to admit that either one is wrong personally in a claim one has made or believes, or that one's side is wrong in a claim it makes personally or not. 

~Oh, I wish it would rain.~ --The Temptations
the49cfr Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #77
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:22-03-2018 11:50:07Copy HTML

"But, I wonder also if it is in part in reaction to the extreme that often comes with those insisting that the sky is falling in regard to this"

I don't think many believe the Earth's temp isn't rising. That's just scientific data and can't be denied.

The issue is whether the temp rising is because of the current lifestyle of humans or if the temp rising is cyclical, as it has shown to be since records have been kept. 

And if it is a result of our lifestyle, what should or can be done? I think we've all read that if no one in the world drove a car again...the result in temp would be insignificant. In other words...the gains would be less than the cost. 

"the sky is falling"...yea, Manhattan was supposed to be under water 10 years ago. 
The world is a magical place full of people waiting to be offended by something.
Bogus0Pomp Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #78
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:22-03-2018 03:52:35Copy HTML

"the sky is falling"...yea, Manhattan was supposed to be under water 10 years ago.

Not according to the nominal predictions of every climate model.

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z "If you can read these 26 letters, there is nothing about the universe that you can't learn." -- Lambros D. Callimoahos
the49cfr Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #79
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:22-03-2018 11:47:32Copy HTML

(Breitbart) In 2006, on NBC’s Today Show, former-Vice President Al Gore predicted that Manhattan would be flooded in “15 to 20 years.” He added, “In fact the World Trade Center Memorial site would be underwater.” Just 3 years ago, the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority predicted that within the next ten years, “Irene-like storms of the future would put a third of New York City streets under water and flood many of the tunnels leading into Manhattan in under an hour because of climate change[.]”
The world is a magical place full of people waiting to be offended by something.
Bogus0Pomp Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #80
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:23-03-2018 03:24:40Copy HTML

49, your post utterly fails to rebut my post (#78).

Breitbart.com's fake news exaggerations and misrepresentations are not the "nominal predictions of every climate model."

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z "If you can read these 26 letters, there is nothing about the universe that you can't learn." -- Lambros D. Callimoahos
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #81
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:23-03-2018 04:34:25Copy HTML

are not the "nominal predictions of every climate model."


They may not be - but they seem to be the ones that get the "faithful" all stirred up ( which granted, has its value).


Out of curiosity, what is average prediction for the various climate models for a place like NYC?

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
Bogus0Pomp Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #82
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:23-03-2018 05:03:09Copy HTML

Out of curiosity, what is average prediction for the various climate models for a place like NYC?

If you are truly curious as to the exact numbers, you can look that up yourself.  Suffice to say that the nominally predicted temperatures of the climate models are in close alignment to the actual, measured temperatures.

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z "If you can read these 26 letters, there is nothing about the universe that you can't learn." -- Lambros D. Callimoahos
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #83
  • From:USA

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:24-03-2018 04:55:03Copy HTML

Well, had tried looking, not hard, but googling about an expectant date or such.   Apparently will take more digging - was figuring you might know off hand.

Among the climate models, what is the earliest date seen for NYC having problems with water rising, or any climate issues?   If you know off hand.   Not asking you to dig either.

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #84
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:04-11-2018 12:52:15Copy HTML


Image may contain: 1 person
easyrider123 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #85
  • From:Norway

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:04-11-2018 05:40:56Copy HTML

yobbo, you are arguing with mindless boobs. 


The conservative and integrity thing to do in life, which has been known and agreed upon for centuries, is that when we go into untouched nature we as thinking humans have the responsibility to care for the nature we find. We are responsible to leave it as it was found, if not even cleaner than we find it. Basic common sense for responsible human behavior. Very simple and correct premise. 

Until the industrial age we hadn't done too much damage, but once the industrial age took off the destruction and pollution of our beautiful ecosystem has been raped and plundered beyond recognition. This includes what we have done to the air, the water, the ground and even deep within the earth, all have been plundered without responsibility or integrity that we were responsible for. 

The saddest thing is, almost all of it was and is unnecessary. We forgot our good principles, and replaced them with greed and self interest. 

Like all liars and users they deny and point fingers everywhere but at themselves. April and alaska are ignorant of even the most basic simple principles of leading a respectful and considerate life. Totally clueless, as are the  majority here. ppfffttt............

         Related image

worth repeating..........

easyrider123 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #86
  • From:Norway

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:04-11-2018 06:27:44Copy HTML


"We thought that we got away with not a lot of warming in both the ocean and the atmosphere for the amount of CO2 that we emitted. But we were wrong," Laure Resplandy, a geoscientist at Princeton University who led the new study, told the Washington Post.

by Common Dreams staff 
Offering a stark warning that humanity may have even less time to drastically cut carbon emissions than the United Nations suggested in its latest alarming report on the climate crisis, new research published in the journal Nature on Wednesday shows that Earth's oceans have retained 60 percent more heat each year over the past 25 years than scientists previously believed.


Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #87
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:04-11-2018 07:01:32Copy HTML

Wave-driven flooding is soon expected to make many of the world's coral-fringed coastlines uninhabitable. Photo / 123RF

NZHerald

Model reveals islands under threat from climate change

easyrider123 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #88
  • From:Norway

Re:Finally, some rationality regarding climate change

Date Posted:05-11-2018 07:11:42Copy HTML

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