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Tomlapaz
  • From:USA

Date Posted:30-04-2018 12:56:24Copy HTML

Below is a good piece on Acts 2:42, on what makes for a health church.  In fact, the church growth was explosive in the book of Acts.

04/09/18  Grace Mail

"All the believers devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, and to fellowship, and to sharing in meals (including the Lord's Supper), and to prayer" (Acts 2:42).

In Acts 2:42, we read that was the priority of the early church: Bible study, fellowship, the breaking of bread and prayer.

One of our sister churches that we actually helped to start are meeting in a school, where they have to set up and tear down every Sunday morning. They have to pack everything in a trailer. As I was thinking about that, I was thinking of how many things they don't have. You think, "Doesn't a church have to have certain kinds of buildings?" "Don't they have to have certain types of furnishings?" "Don't you need a cross somewhere?" "Don't you need a steeple someplace?" "Don't you need a gymnasium and a golf course, and a pool?"

I think of what the early church didn't have and it was so successful! The early church didn't have any of that stuff. It didn't even have the stuff we have. And yet, people were getting saved, and it was more successful in the first century than the church has ever been since.

The Gospel went out into the entire world, and all they had was Bible study, fellowship, the breaking of bread and prayer.

So, I think that everything that a church does ought to center around one of those four things. We ought to be able to trace everything we do at Calvary back to the fact that it's either Bible study, it's a fellowship opportunity, it's the breaking of bread (which I believe speaks of the Lord's Supper prominent in services and available to people), and/or prayer. Everything should come back to that. Those are the priorities. If you can get to other things; they're not wrong, but these are the things a church ought to focus on.

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #61
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:10-05-2018 03:49:24Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

Well, on the outside chance that I am missing something - here is the verse below.


2 Timothy 3:16  (RSV)

16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

I actually gave  3 options  (What we call today the Old Testament, or the New Testament, or both?) and you answered 'Yes'.    Yes is to which option?


 So, when you said 'Yes' - what I am asking is:

1.Did you mean the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation?

2.Did you mean just from Genesis up to but including the Gospels?

3.Did you mean the Gospels through to Revelation?

4.Or if something else - please explain.


Now, not really sure why you avoiding being specific on this.   And frankly, I did this dance with Skw, and even Yobbo, and I have no interest in such - but since you are a believer, am really curious why you cannot be specific here.   I can understand why Skw and Yobbo do this.

But that in the end is up to you.  Frankly though, it does give me the impression that you are in some doubt now, or some such.


I've spelled it out for you but once again:

2 tim 3:16 tells us that scripture is useful, BUT 2 Tim 3:16 does NOT say that Early Christians were engaged in extensive Bible Study, that is what YOU have misinterpreted AND cause confusion to others on.

There was NO BIBLE, only Jewish Scriptures which the early converts, mostly jews were already familiar with so they didn't need to do Bible study as you say. The NT tells us that.

YOU as a Christian have avoided answering my questions and you may fool YOURSELF, but you cannot hide from the Lord you claim to follow , and maintain your obfuscation and dishonesty.

Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #62
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:17-05-2018 03:42:24Copy HTML

So you are saying that 2 Timothy 3:16 is referring to just Jewish Scripture?  That is what I am getting from your last response - just want to confirm.
Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #63
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:17-05-2018 01:48:22Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

So you are saying that 2 Timothy 3:16 is referring to just Jewish Scripture?  That is what I am getting from your last response - just want to confirm.

I've spelled it out for you but once again:

2 tim 3:16 tells us that scripture (ALL SCRIPTURE OT & NT) is useful, BUT 2 Tim 3:16 does NOT say that Early Christians were engaged in extensive Bible Study, that is what YOU have misinterpreted AND cause confusion to others on.

There was NO BIBLE at the time 2 Tim 3:16 was written, only Jewish Scriptures which the early converts, mostly jews were already familiar with so they didn't need to do Bible study as you say. The NT tells us that.

YOU as a Christian have avoided answering my questions and you may fool YOURSELF, but you cannot hide from the Lord you claim to follow , and maintain your obfuscation and dishonesty.

Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #64
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:18-05-2018 01:32:23Copy HTML

2 tim 3:16 tells us that scripture (ALL SCRIPTURE OT & NT) 

There was NO BIBLE at the time 2 Tim 3:16 was written, only Jewish Scriptures


Ok, so then you are saying there was no NT scripture at this time when Paul wrote this, correct?  Just OT scripture.

So, OT scripture was clearly known at this point (which Jesus notes also) - so the council of Jamnia really did not add then anything to that.  That is where I was going in particular - did not see what value noting that council brought to the discussion earlier, in post 4.

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #65
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:18-05-2018 06:14:22Copy HTML

So we have two devout Christians going at it and each of your Christian denominations are what and what one of you devout Holier than thou Christians are right? One could not miss, red typing, blue typing and large letters, so one of you have to be right. Uh huh.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #66
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:18-05-2018 05:55:34Copy HTML

Reply to katie5445

So we have two devout Christians going at it and each of your Christian denominations are what and what one of you devout Holier than thou Christians are right? One could not miss, red typing, blue typing and large letters, so one of you have to be right. Uh huh.


You are partially correct and also wrong. Disagreement does not delegitimize the TRUTH of Christianity AND there is a simple source to check that will validate that truth, the Bible. It contains the doctrine of Christianity, in print, by those who were present at it's inception. No one is holier than thou , although many from the outside ( and sometimes the INSIDE) incorrectly perceive it that way because they are unfamiliar with what the doctrine is AND what is actually contained IN the writings. Then when you point out where to accurately discern the information, MANY just get angry for whatever reason , rather than checking in the proper directions. Tomplaz has been stuck on a theme and for some reason is unwilling to address his errors, covering up by asking ridiculous questions in place of giving proper responses. He'll have to work out his dishonesty with the Lord. Understand it's NOT about 'denominations'.

 ANY Christian denomination that has as it's core ,
the basic tenets are indeed Christian and equal, whether a denomination of Protestantism or Catholic, Orthodox etc.

I can only point out what his words say against the words of the NT and say "here it is". The rest is how honest he CAN be, but isn't.

wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #67
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:18-05-2018 05:57:32Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

2 tim 3:16 tells us that scripture (ALL SCRIPTURE OT & NT) 

There was NO BIBLE at the time 2 Tim 3:16 was written, only Jewish Scriptures


Ok, so then you are saying there was no NT scripture at this time when Paul wrote this, correct?  Just OT scripture.

So, OT scripture was clearly known at this point (which Jesus notes also) - so the council of Jamnia really did not add then anything to that.  That is where I was going in particular - did not see what value noting that council brought to the discussion earlier, in post 4.


There was NO codified BIBLE as we know it today, even the OLD TESTAMENT. There was NO "BIBLE STUDY" which you are somehow fixated on, incorrectly. There were 'books' or 'writings' known as scripture, not as the BIBLE.
Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #68
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:18-05-2018 08:41:44Copy HTML

The people who collectively wrote the bible were, by the standards of today, ignorant dreamers.
People who believe them today are morons.
"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #69
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:19-05-2018 03:16:36Copy HTML

Reply to wale63

Reply to Tomlapaz

2 tim 3:16 tells us that scripture (ALL SCRIPTURE OT & NT) 

There was NO BIBLE at the time 2 Tim 3:16 was written, only Jewish Scriptures


Ok, so then you are saying there was no NT scripture at this time when Paul wrote this, correct?  Just OT scripture.

So, OT scripture was clearly known at this point (which Jesus notes also) - so the council of Jamnia really did not add then anything to that.  That is where I was going in particular - did not see what value noting that council brought to the discussion earlier, in post 4.


There was NO codified BIBLE as we know it today, even the OLD TESTAMENT. There was NO "BIBLE STUDY" which you are somehow fixated on, incorrectly. There were 'books' or 'writings' known as scripture, not as the BIBLE.


As you noted earlier, sounds like it is more an issue of semantics.  

By the way, Paul was probably not just referring to Jewish Scripture (what we call OT scripture), given what Peter had to say in his epistle.

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #70
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:19-05-2018 03:10:11Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

Reply to wale63

Reply to Tomlapaz

2 tim 3:16 tells us that scripture (ALL SCRIPTURE OT & NT) 

There was NO BIBLE at the time 2 Tim 3:16 was written, only Jewish Scriptures


Ok, so then you are saying there was no NT scripture at this time when Paul wrote this, correct?  Just OT scripture.

So, OT scripture was clearly known at this point (which Jesus notes also) - so the council of Jamnia really did not add then anything to that.  That is where I was going in particular - did not see what value noting that council brought to the discussion earlier, in post 4.


There was NO codified BIBLE as we know it today, even the OLD TESTAMENT. There was NO "BIBLE STUDY" which you are somehow fixated on, incorrectly. There were 'books' or 'writings' known as scripture, not as the BIBLE.


As you noted earlier, sounds like it is more an issue of semantics.  

By the way, Paul was probably not just referring to Jewish Scripture (what we call OT scripture), given what Peter had to say in his epistle.


Not an issue of semantics. YOU keep insisting on this non existent Bible study in the early church. THERE WAS NO BIBLE STUDY. Why you keep overemphasizing this non existent  activity is beyond me. You really don't know your chronology here or , for that matter , the topic as you may be well intentioned but off and incorrect.
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #71
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:19-05-2018 03:12:44Copy HTML

Well, perhaps - but they did study the scriptures, yes?
Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #72
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:19-05-2018 03:16:27Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

Well, perhaps - but they did study the scriptures, yes
?

You keep going in circles. NO, they did not STUDY the scriptures in the early Christian church.
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #73
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:19-05-2018 03:22:44Copy HTML

See, that disagrees directly with what Jesus said, Paul said, etc.  Frankly, I thought you would have agreed also, so I am probably misunderstanding something you have been saying.

    So maybe we should focus on this. 

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #74
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:19-05-2018 03:29:48Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

See, that disagrees directly with what Jesus said, Paul said, etc.  Frankly, I thought you would have agreed also, so I am probably misunderstanding something you have been saying.

    So maybe we should focus on this. 


Jesus did NOT say they engaged in BIBLE STUDY and Neither did PAUL. THIS is your incorrect fixation. MAYBE we should focus on your obfuscation which YOU cannot hide because God see you are being dishonest.
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #75
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:19-05-2018 04:25:37Copy HTML

Forget 'Bible Study' -  we are talking about studying scripture now, yes?
Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #76
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:19-05-2018 11:09:33Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

Forget 'Bible Study' -  we are talking about studying scripture now, yes?

They didn't devote themselves to Studying scriptures either. They referred to them but that was NOT the emphasis, as YOU have incorrectly portrayed.
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #77
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:20-05-2018 12:32:10Copy HTML

The Pharisees, for example, studied Scripture yes?   And at the synagogues they did also, yes?   We see that a few times in the gospels.

And we see examples of that in the OT, yes?

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #78
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:20-05-2018 02:53:14Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

The Pharisees, for example, studied Scripture yes?   And at the synagogues they did also, yes?   We see that a few times in the gospels.

And we see examples of that in the OT, yes?


Pharisees were JEWS not Christians. you are obfuscating.
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #79
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:20-05-2018 03:23:55Copy HTML

I  am building a case.   Many Christians btw were Jews, and the writers of each book of the NT were Jews.   Paul, Peter, Matthew, etc.

Even several of the Pharisees came to believe on Jesus.   In fact, Christians were primarily Jews initially; one of the early debates at the council before James (book of Acts) was about the Gentile converts.   But of course, once that was resolved, and Gentiles easily outnumbering Jews, of course they then become the greater percentage of Christians.


But what I am pointing out here is that studying scripture (though it is only Jewish Scripture before Jesus's resurrection) was already being practiced, yes?

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #80
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:20-05-2018 03:29:38Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

I  am building a case.   Many Christians btw were Jews, and the writers of each book of the NT were Jews.   Paul, Peter, Matthew, etc.

Even several of the Pharisees came to believe on Jesus.   In fact, Christians were primarily Jews initially; one of the early debates at the council before James (book of Acts) was about the Gentile converts.   But of course, once that was resolved, and Gentiles easily outnumbering Jews, of course they then become the greater percentage of Christians.


But what I am pointing out here is that studying scripture (though it is only Jewish Scripture before Jesus's resurrection) was already being practiced, yes?


No. Early Christians did NOT devote a substantial amount of time to 'studying the scriptures", no matter how many times you re-word or ask. You are being misleading and dishonest.
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #81
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:20-05-2018 07:42:14Copy HTML

You seem to be avoiding.

To repeat:

But what I am pointing out here is that studying scripture (though it is only Jewish Scripture before Jesus's resurrection) was already being practiced, yes?


Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #82
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:20-05-2018 07:49:57Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

You seem to be avoiding.

To repeat:

But what I am pointing out here is that studying scripture (though it is only Jewish Scripture before Jesus's resurrection) was already being practiced, yes?



Not avoiding at all.  Early Christians did NOT devote a substantial amount of time to 'studying the scriptures", no matter how many times you re-word or ask. You are being misleading and dishonest.

THIS means studying scripture was NOT being practiced or emphasized by Early Christians.

Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #83
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:20-05-2018 08:18:19Copy HTML

I understand the dogmatic statement you are making.

I am seeking to build a case to challenge that.   If you rather not be challenged, then yeah, don't answer the question.  We can leave it be then.

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #84
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:21-05-2018 12:54:09Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

I understand the dogmatic statement you are making.

I am seeking to build a case to challenge that.   If you rather not be challenged, then yeah, don't answer the question.  We can leave it be then.


There is NOTHING to challenge. You are incorrect and being dishonest in your presentation. YOU have to answer to the LORD for your dishonesty, not to me. YOU have to answer to the LORD for your leading others down the wrong path, not to me.

2 Corinthians 4:5-7  (RSV)

For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 

 For it is the God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, to show that the transcendent power belongs to God and not to us.



Galatians 1:7-10 (RSV)

not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ

 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 

 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

10 Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ.

Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #85
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:21-05-2018 02:06:28Copy HTML

Ok, so you do not wish to be challenged.  We can forego this then.   But the question is there when you are ready.
Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #86
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:21-05-2018 02:08:44Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

Ok, so you do not wish to be challenged.  We can forego this then.   But the question is there when you are ready.


You are sidestepping because you are not honest and I question your authenticity as a Christian. YOU have to answer to the LORD for your dishonesty, not to me. YOU have to answer to the LORD for your leading others down the wrong path, not to me.


Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #87
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:21-05-2018 04:59:16Copy HTML

The answer to the question below is clearly Yes (based on the OT and the gospels).  Frankly, was just looking for you to confirm you agree with that, before moving onto the next point - not sure why it gets you so upset.   But just to clarify what I am asking, in case you are misunderstanding what I am asking - I am elaborating by adding the portion in blue.  

But what I am pointing out here is that studying scripture (though it is only Jewish Scripture before Jesus's resurrection) was already being practiced at the time Jesus walked the earth, and before, yes?

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #88
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:21-05-2018 12:10:38Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

The answer to the question below is clearly Yes (based on the OT and the gospels).  Frankly, was just looking for you to confirm you agree with that, before moving onto the next point - not sure why it gets you so upset.   But just to clarify what I am asking, in case you are misunderstanding what I am asking - I am elaborating by adding the portion in blue.  

But what I am pointing out here is that studying scripture (though it is only Jewish Scripture before Jesus's resurrection) was already being practiced at the time Jesus walked the earth, and before, yes?


Not by Christians, even at the outset of Christianity. Only by Jews who have nothing to do with the TRUTH of Christ. CHRIST did not assemble people to "study the scriptures" but to PREACH to them with the FULL POWER of the SPIRIT.
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #89
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:22-05-2018 04:59:24Copy HTML

Only by Jews who have nothing to do with the TRUTH of Christ.

That is not true, according to the scriptures.  Would you like to see some examples from the Bible?

Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
wale63 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #90
  • From:USA

Re:Four essentials for a healthy church

Date Posted:22-05-2018 09:19:30Copy HTML

Reply to Tomlapaz

Only by Jews who have nothing to do with the TRUTH of Christ.

That is not true, according to the scriptures.  Would you like to see some examples from the Bible?


You are incorrect and dishonest and the BIBLE contradicts you as I've shown you . Read the entire Book of Hebrews and you'll see. In the OT period, God revealed himself ONLY to the Jews and by being a Jew, fulfilling the laws set down by God through Moses , culminated in a sacrifice by the high priest, were sins washed away.

The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross fulfilled ALL the OT laws for anyone accepting of Christ as ANY Christian fulfilled ALL the OT laws through Christ and not by the literal doing of the laws. READ the NT book of Hebrews ( entirely) and you'll see.

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