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Yekyua
  • From:USA

Date Posted:01-12-2018 03:03:08Copy HTML

Excerpted from the Atlantic, from article about a controversy that's received widespread attention:


Last month, during a conference for scholars who study international affairs, Simona Sharoni, a professor of women's and gender studies at Merrimack College, asked a crowded hotel elevator what floor everyone needed. Richard Ned Lebow, a professor of political theory at King’s College London, replied, “Ladies’ lingerie” (or, as Sharoni remembers it, “Women’s lingerie.”) Several people laughed. Was that sexual harassment?


( As background for the few in here who aren't codgers, elevators in stores, offices, apartment buildings were once attended by full-time, uniformed operators.  Passengers would provide a floor number (or desired department, in a store), operator pressed button.  Lebow stated When he was young, in the 1950s, he said, it was a "standard gag line" to ask the elevator operator for the hardware or lingerie floor as though one were in a department store


Sharoni and her colleague were definitely not amused, but said nothing that evening.  Still upset, Sharoni reviewed International Studies Association guidelines, and decided Lebow's crack warranted filing a formal complaint to them.  Upon receipt of their notice of the complaint, Lebow emailed Sharoni, telling her he meant no disrespect to women, that had championed women's rights and causes throughout his career.  He further said he believed his joke, antiquated and lame though it may have been, did not remotely rise to level of harassment, and that he thought a tempest about it hurt more than helped women's cause.  He also asked why she didn't just contact him personally, as guidelines also suggested as first line of action, rather than going straight to Association. 

This only served to escalate matters.  Sharoni responded by complaining to ISA Lebow was dismissive, and had tried to intimidate her.  


The ACS then notified Lebow he was to submit unequivocal apology or lose his membership.  Lebow's dug his heels, much battling correspondence has ensued. Lawyers are involved. Sharoni has received hate mail.  And there we stand.  Preponderance of support seems to be for him, but of course, ad populem opinions do not an argument make.


Says The Chronicle of Higher Education: Now his refusal to formally apologize has touched off the latest skirmish in the #MeToo battles rocking academe. At issue is whether a comment made in jest rises to the level of a punishable offense, and what happens when a complaint some deem as trivial results in a vicious online backlash against the offended party.


The Atlantic author takes no firm stand on who was right, wrong, or in between, but does go on to fault the processes used by the ISA (and others like them), in general criticizing their clarity and ineffective procedures for dispute resolution.  


https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/05/is-this-old-lingerie-joke-harmless-or-harassment/559760/

https://www.chronicle.com/article/He-Makes-a-Joke-She-Isn-t/243350


As Atlantic author also observes, this is a perfect case study for discussion, as in truth there's nothing really horrendous or earth shaking here by any measure. (LeBow's not been accused of Weinstein-like acts, is not likely to be drummed out in disgrace, likewise, Sharoni hasn't been raped or brutalized.)  Reactions? Ideas?  






O ye wha are sae guid yoursel', Sae pious and sae holy, Ye've nought to do but mark and tell Your neibours' fauts and folly! -- Robert Burns (Address to the Unco Guid)
easyrider123 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #31
  • From:Norway

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:03-12-2018 02:11:31Copy HTML

You can ignore it if you wish Easy...which as Yek pointed out you aren’t actually  doing by posting  on this thread....but that doesn’t mean others can or should. 


Trust me I do ignore and dismiss the Sharoni woman's actions. My commentary is aimed at those who perpetuate this inanity, and that being the problem. Thinking that it deserves attention helps to create the atmosphere where this type of nonsense will grow. I think yoiu know exactly what I mean.

mickeyrat Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #32
  • From:USA

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:03-12-2018 04:59:17Copy HTML

Of course it deserves attention, if only to show the dangers of the prevailing attitude amongt that subset of women. It's the female equivalent, if a it less bloody, of these males who join militias. Neither represent a healthy state of mind that they would feel they need to take things to such extremes, and we do well to warn ourselves against the pitfalls their paths offer us. Knowledge is power, as much to guard against as to do.
easyrider123 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #33
  • From:Norway

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:03-12-2018 07:55:38Copy HTML

When the stupid action doesn't get the desired attention, the action is usually discarded as it is then useless. Give it attention, then it grows and becomes an obnoxious tumor of mental illness. FSA forever! lol
_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #34
  • From:USA

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:03-12-2018 01:44:21Copy HTML

You are still being obtuse, Easy. Who decides what a "stupid action" is? How do we all know what to ignore and not ignore if we don't discuss it? This is not a singular occurrence no matter how much you pretend otherwise.
skwanderer Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #35
  • From:USA

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:03-12-2018 06:31:56Copy HTML

Lol. I've read articles...and observed it myself as I've watched reruns on Netflix...on how very popular shows like Friends could not be made today. Many comedians have spoken up about the negative impact of PCism, some no longer willing to perform at college venues. This is so unfortunate because comedy is a hugely important and effective tool to address social problems and/or bridge differences. ___ "All in the Family" would be major taboo, never make it on air today.
skwanderer Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #36
  • From:USA

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:03-12-2018 06:33:58Copy HTML

Hah! I have the same problem. So, I assume you hate "My Pillow" ads as much as I do. Last fall I bought a super duper knife sharpener in the middle of the night to place in my buddies fishing package. He asked what the heck I did that for. I said that's what happens when you watch tv in the middle of the night. ____________ You didn't do it for the amazing Chinese steamer they threw in for free? Now how much would you pay?
easyrider123 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #37
  • From:Norway

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:03-12-2018 07:32:21Copy HTML

You are still being obtuse, Easy.  Who decides what a "stupid action" is?  How do we all know what to ignore and not ignore if we don't discuss it? This is not a singular occurrence no matter how much you pretend otherwise.



Yes I know very well it's not a singular occurrence,that it is not singular is the problem, it's spreading like herpes. but as has been mentioned it is indicative of a sickness that seems to be growing and it's quite obnoxious and frankly disturbing on so mmany levels. The prime example being the way comedians are avoiding college campuses because of insane people like like this Sharoni woman and the minions like her. 

Just venting. I completely detach from this PC psycho behavior day to day, but here it shows up and I couldn't help but spit on it. 

Doe_Eyes Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #38
  • From:USA

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:04-12-2018 02:52:51Copy HTML

a professor of political theory at King’s College London, replied, “Ladies’ lingerie” (or, as Sharoni remembers it, “Women’s lingerie.”) Several people laughed. Was that sexual harassment?


No, it wasn't sexual harassment and women who trivialize REAL sexual harassment by bringing up such instances, do ALL women harm, IMO.  

The time is always right to do what is right.
skrumpie Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #39
  • From:Argentina

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:04-12-2018 04:04:30Copy HTML

You mean like instantly judging a man with an exemplary reputation and career guilty on a 37 year-old charge made by a Trump-hating female whose testimony was thoroughly debunked, even by those she claimed were present?


That kind of trivializing of actual sexual harassment?

Try to remember the kind of September when men weren't girls and girls weren't fellas..................
Yekyua Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #40
  • From:USA

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:04-12-2018 10:20:10Copy HTML

a professor of political theory at King’s College London, replied, “Ladies’ lingerie” (or, as Sharoni remembers it, “Women’s lingerie.”) Several people laughed. Was that sexual harassment?


No, it wasn't sexual harassment and women who trivialize REAL sexual harassment by bringing up such instances, do ALL women harm, IMO.  


That seems to be the consensus in here, DoeEyes.  And, taken by itself, the incident isn't such a big deal in grand scheme of things.  More significant is that the powers that be in the International Scholars Association have supported Sharoni to extent they have not just reprimanded him, but dismembering (well, they are, lol) Lebow for his refusal to make an "unequivocal" apology to Sharoni.  As mentioned earlier in the thread, at 76, this act isn't going to destroy his career or professional reputation. Were he younger, or less distinguished, it might be a different story.


How has it happened that institutional forces back up such nonsense, have lost sense of proportion?  While this sort of hyper-correctness might be most exaggerated in the academy, it's not confined to that setting by any means.  


The "grievance industry" as it is sometimes called is infantilizing the larger culture.  It also distracts us from REAL victims of "isms" who actually deserve redress.


QZ, sorry for delayed response.  Yesterday I read, in an advice column of all things an exchange that prompted much thought about its greater meaning.  

The advice seeker described herself as a "misphonia" sufferer.  In her case her sound-hypersensitivity trigger was of people chewing.  She said it was so acute, even sound of someone chewing a couple tables away in a restaurant could send her into a murderous rage.  


I googled the term.  Definition from Web MD is as follows: Misophonia, also known as selective sound sensitivity syndrome, starts with a trigger. It's often an oral sound -- the noise someone makes when they eat, breathe, chew, yawn, or whistle. Sometimes a small repetitive motion is the cause -- someone fidgets, jostles you, or wiggles their foot.  Learned there's even a Misphonia Association! 


Her question was how to deal with social dilemma involving close, longtime friends.  The husband of a couple she'd known for years was a loud chewer, and dinners - to which she was often invited, were a nightmare.  What to do?  She was dismayed the wife (her primary friend) hadn't seen fit to check her husband's habits, even knowing of letter writer's hangup about loud chewing.  Advice seeker concluded that she didn't intend to pay for therapy to adapt or decondition herself, and why should she?  It was up to him (and wife) to modify his "rude and disgusting" eating habits.  Basically,  accomodate her hypersensitivity rather than attempt to cope -  I would probably be more charitable toward her dilemma had she not added the last bit.  Astoundingly (to me), advice columnist agreed onus was on couple, that she should unapologetically remind wife of her misphonia, and let her know she would not be hanging out at dinnertime.  


Reader comments mostly echoed my thoughts about who might more aptly labeled "rude and disgusting".  It she became "murderously angry" at a diner in restaurant not even sitting at her table, it's possible man's eating fell within most people's tolerance range - could have had a sinus problem, etc.  If not, she should just forgo free dinners and hospitality.  I should add while the DSM doesn't classify misphonia as a specific disorder, lumping such symptoms under Generalized Anxiety Disorder, there are clinics and treatments for those inordinately upset by ordinary sounds.  


And how is this woman's judgemental tone (others duty-bound to accomodate my affliction) related to Sharoni/LeBow?  My belief is that the OP incident goes beyond feminist, battle of sexes scope. It also has to do with the human relations dynamic that necessarily obtains from a completely self-centered mentality.  


Almost started a thread titled "Misphonia: Medicalizing Pet Peeves" or something like that, but worried Easyrider might be triggered ...   Lol.  

_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #41
  • From:USA

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:05-12-2018 01:37:30Copy HTML

Dovetailing on that Yek, my daughter brought to my attention something she saw on social media.  A gal with social anxiety was expressing that she wished people would stop saying/jesting that she put her phone down in social situations.  She was explaining that being on her phone helped her cope and she just wished people would educate themselves about anxiety disorders.  Setting aside for a moment the studies being done showing technology/social media are actually spawning anxiety disorders, it struck us that this gal is being done a disservice if she believes that is coping.  That is expecting other people to cope with your lack of manners.  


Similarly we see an increase in service animals, which I think is fantastic as a construct, but is it incumbant on society to just bear with allergies or abandon animal-free preferences?  It doesn't bother me personally, but I have a niece who is severely allergic to dogs...does HER medical condition not matter on an airplane sitting next to some dude who got his pup certified on the internet?


As this relates to the topic, I think we all agree women should be treated equally and perferably respectfully (as should all people).  But for people to co exist, it will not happen if the premise starts and ends with expectations that it is the end of the world to get your feelings hurt. 

FL_Freebird Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #42
  • From:USA

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:11-12-2018 04:53:05Copy HTML

Was that sexual harassment?


I guess that depends on who you ask.


Simona Sharoni is a feminist scholar and activist who is currently Professor of Women's and Gender Studies, at Merrimack College.



Love in an elevator
Livin' it up when I'm goin' down
Love in an elevator

Lovin' it up till I hit the ground


Jacki's in the elevator
Lingerie second floor
She said 'can I see you later
And love you just a little more?

Read more: Aerosmith - Love In An Elevator Lyrics | MetroLyrics 

[MARQUEE]"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." -Margaret Thatcher[/MARQUEE]
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #43
  • From:USA

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:11-12-2018 01:39:15Copy HTML

I think the OP definitely is a sign of oversensitivity.


Below seems to also be another example of folk getting upset with something nowadays that was never found disturbing before.   I can see why folk today would be bothered - not unlike how folk got upset over the song 'short people have no reason to live'.   Folk I understand got upset over Modest Proposal by Jonathan Swift also, in its day, misunderstanding the satire.


https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/12/18/baby-its-cold-outside/


https://www.songfacts.com/facts/randy-newman/short-people


  


Come worship Jesus, born King of the Jews.
Segovia_del_Prado Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #44
  • From:USA

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:12-12-2018 12:33:33Copy HTML

it will probably come as a surprise to absolutely none of you that I find this entire thread, and the hypocrisy displayed, hysterically funny.
Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #45
  • From:USA

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:12-12-2018 06:25:31Copy HTML

He’s an old guy among guys complimenting through a jest about lingerie when she asks about the floor.  He meant no offense but some was taken.  A misunderstanding.  Men who seem to be laughing at you, definitely not with you in her case, are upsetting.  I’m annoyed by women who sink to victim so easily when they should fight.


Even so, I  hope she wins and sends that smug unwilling to apologize jerk to his room without dinner.  Not that I would have gone so far, but now that she has, well, it’s public now and men can’t be allowed to think he was a gentleman in that elevator.  He cannot get away with it.


My preference is to just let those old guys die cause you’re not going to change them.  Ignore them or think of a demeaning comeback....one that doesn’t get you in trouble, but another laugh.


You should probably go to hardware, first.

Are men your age up for that?

Your wife will be so happy.


None of those work, so I’d have let it go.  Sometimes, I miss the catcalls of my youth....lol


Jamocha Shake.

What goes around, comes around.
Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #46
  • From:USA

Re:Harmless Joke or Harassment? Case Study

Date Posted:12-12-2018 06:44:42Copy HTML

My daughter and I absolutely can’t stand the sound of someone eating, even with the mouth closed. She complains; I stand up and leave the room. It truly is unbearable, but it’s my problem. It would never occur to me to impose on the pleasure of others, accuse them of being rude. Son3 sat beside me for a few minutes while I was eating then said, Wow, it’s true what Dad said, you don’t make a sound when you’re eating. Son3 makes plenty of noise that daughter complains about. Not everyone bothers us, but some with thin cheeks......it’s time to go. Note to self let’s not have dinner with him, her, or them, again. Husband: You shouldn’t be that way. Me: You’re right. I shouldn’t. LOL ....and yet I am.
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