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Tomlapaz
  • From:USA

Date Posted:10-07-2018 11:50:23

There are - in this current age - medical concerns with incest.   Issues however, that apparently are limited in scope compared to, lets say, homosexuality.


What are the medical concerns - based on science - currently against incest?

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
  • From:USA

Re:Incest - why is it a problem, scientifically?

Date Posted:11-07-2018 09:38:43

No one can think of any?   Interesting - I can think of one.   Only one frankly.

More an issue now than thousands of years ago.

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
skwanderer Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
  • From:USA

Re:Incest - why is it a problem, scientifically?

Date Posted:13-07-2018 10:56:31

 Ill tell why it is a problem scientifically.  Evolution.  You walked right into an evolutionary fact...animals generally avoid incest because mixing genes in the pool is part of the deal to have a large combination of allele frequencies to withstand future change. 
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment." Albert Einstein
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #3
  • From:USA

Re:Incest - why is it a problem, scientifically?

Date Posted:14-07-2018 12:07:30

That is the one and only objection I could think of also (well, apart from your confusion about evolution itself).   The effect on offspring.

So your only problem with it then is offspring - and if the couple will not have offspring, you have no objections to it.

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
Yekyua Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #4
  • From:USA

Re:Incest - why is it a problem, scientifically?

Date Posted:14-07-2018 01:41:05

It's an interesting question.  

At level other than impact of direct genetic disadvantages - I've also read literature suggesting that inbreeding avoidance is less strong than previously believed, or at least there are gaps in the evidence, would have to research this more carefully.  Certainly humans have far more complex psychosexual (interior) lives, and revulsion, even horror, (Oedipus gouges his eyes out, not even having wittingly commited incest!).  Anyway taboo against incest extends beyond mere concern for genetic problems, and even with those constraints it's not rare that it's violated.  Father-daughter seems to be most common.    

Whatever the case, I'd submit that other, sociocultural-evolutionarily-based explanations for the aversion apply because humans are unique in some respects.  For one thing, they're more or less perpetually randy, and for another, sexual bonding is a powerful force, more complex psychologically than among other species. For humans, close kin remaining loyal to one another, staying together as a cohesive, cooperative unit confers a number of benefits for juveniles, enhances their chance of surviving and reproducing.  Where family members are mating with one another, sexual jealousy, competition for attention and favors will arise, (among other adversarial dynamics).  
Such a group riven by powerful conflict will not be as effective in providing a stable, nurturing environment for its youngest members, and also protecting themselves against external threats.  I realize the level at which selection operates is an ongoing and perpetual controversy among scientists ever since Dawkins wrote the Selfish Gene.

Can you see or hypothesize how incest could possibly benefit humans, Tom?  Where do you want to go with the question?

O ye wha are sae guid yoursel', Sae pious and sae holy, Ye've nought to do but mark and tell Your neibours' fauts and folly! -- Robert Burns (Address to the Unco Guid)
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #5
  • From:USA

Re:Incest - why is it a problem, scientifically?

Date Posted:14-07-2018 02:46:01

I am not advocating for incest - Skw has raised the objection to this on several occasions - and I wanted to nail down just what is his objection, apart from the Bible, before addressing it via the Bible.

Usually one objection to the biblical account in Genesis (among others) is incest - but if we are going to take issue with that, we have to do so with the biblical account in mind, where genetics would not be the issue.   Genetically perfect brothers/sisters would not have an issue with offspring as we do today.   Adam and Eve were created perfect, and the effects of sin on the human body takes time to accumulate.

So from the biblical POV (if taken as actual history), the genetic pool of humans has actually been deteriorating, not improving.   But frankly, I don't think either scenario could be demonstrated easily (if at all) scientifically.   

But if true, that there is actually genetic decay, that fits in with later prohibitions in the bible against incest - long after Abraham, the father of Jews, became the father of Isaac with his half sister Sarah.


In short - objecting to Adam's children marrying among themselves (there being no one else) cannot be objected to by the current state of affairs in human genetics.  It would not have been (in the account given) an issue at the get go.

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
Yekyua Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #6
  • From:USA

Re:Incest - why is it a problem, scientifically?

Date Posted:14-07-2018 03:13:55

I didn't think you were advocating incest, but knew there must be some backstory given you all have been going at these questions for years.  Lol.
Didn't know about accruing imperfection incrementally over generations - my belief (according to my understanding of the theology) is that once Adam and Eve had fallen, they were no longer perfect, period.  All humankind would be born in sin, self-conscious shame, self consciously mortal therefore living in fear and dread.  Not just "less perfect," or "degrees of imperfection" but fallen, their children and their children's children forever after to carry this stain.  Thus, the need for the messiah and grace.  


O ye wha are sae guid yoursel', Sae pious and sae holy, Ye've nought to do but mark and tell Your neibours' fauts and folly! -- Robert Burns (Address to the Unco Guid)
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #7
  • From:USA

Re:Incest - why is it a problem, scientifically?

Date Posted:14-07-2018 05:45:44

You are correct - once fallen, they were no longer perfect.  They were subject now to death, for example.  Spiritual and physical.

It is not explicit in the Bible, but the thinking is that this begins the process of deterioration.  2nd law of thermodynamics so to speak - entropy now increasing (the thinking is that before the fall, it was not increasing).

And certain events in the Bible fit in with that idea.    The decreased life span after the flood, for example - where the once protective canopy is gone.   And again, incest not being an issue initially.

And of course - death.

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
skwanderer Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #8
  • From:USA

Re:Incest - why is it a problem, scientifically?

Date Posted:15-07-2018 04:44:29

  I realize the level at which selection operates is an ongoing and perpetual controversy among scientists ever since Dawkins wrote the Selfish Gene.

___

I  thought Dawkins argued that the level of selection can operate on all aspects of a group; the gene, the individual, and the species.  I agree that there can be selective events at each level for many of not most species.

"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment." Albert Einstein
Tomlapaz Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #9
  • From:USA

Re:Incest - why is it a problem, scientifically?

Date Posted:17-07-2018 04:31:35

For humans, close kin remaining loyal to one another, staying together as a cohesive, cooperative unit confers a number of benefits for juveniles, enhances their chance of surviving and reproducing.  Where family members are mating with one another, sexual jealousy, competition for attention and favors will arise, (among other adversarial dynamics).   


The key thing here is that the primary concern with incest is due to increased likelihood of recessive and undesirable genes from two very closely related people manifesting themselves in the offspring.

Which is still a risk even a sister and brother who married but who were not aware that they were related - though having such taboos themselves.


But if two parents are not genetically flawed, there would be no such risk to the children.   Of course, I think we can agree no such individuals exist today.  

Jesus: For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words? Psalm 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives.
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