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anjypanjy
  • From:USA

Date Posted:08-11-2018 02:18:44Copy HTML

I watched a documentary recently (Missrepresentation) which was enlightening overall, but one particular factoid stood out to me and honestly sort of blew my mind. 


Cuba, China, Iraq and Iran have had more women in upper-level government positions than the United States.


That's just hard to even fathom. Anyway, I did a little gooogling this morning as I was mulling that over and came across this article with this nifty chart. It turns out we here in the Land of the Free don't fare any better than Arab nations when it comes to women in power. 


This makes the gains by women in this most recent election even more meaningful and long overdue, honestly. 


Anyway, I just wanted to share and get everyone's thoughts. Am I the only one shocked by this information?


https://www.vox.com/mischiefs-of-faction/2017/4/10/15239998/womens-representation-congress-america

govols Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:08-11-2018 02:37:02Copy HTML

It's interesting, but the chart reflects elected offices, eh? Women must run, and then they must win, if they're to hold seats, right? The Parties have a hard time controling who wins nominations, and incumbancy is really the key in the US at least. Inertia?
nateonthenet Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:08-11-2018 02:41:32Copy HTML

I read a recent article about the makeup of Congress. Democrats are doing a fair job electing women, gays, Hispanics, Asians, Muslims. It has been Republicans - the party of old white guys - who really have work to do. The election certainly added more women. The truth is women carried the day for the Dems.
_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #3
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:08-11-2018 03:21:00Copy HTML

Govols, I was just reading another piece discussing how both parties have and will increasingly have less ability to control who wins nominations. Gone are the old back room party bosses, and while it was already happening, campaign finance reform and technology have made it worse. The new bosses are the special interests with big money flowing through PACs, their mouthpieces are old and new media, and that is aiding the extremists infecting and destroying both parties. Anjy, I was aware of the imbalance but unfortunately I don't have a link to a study I read explaining why America has fewer women. Much the same as the "wage gap", the devil is in the details in regard to accounting for it. In our country...much like the wage gap...the cause is not actually "discrimination" any more, but a host of factors. One of those factors is what Govols and I just said, and it accounts for why so many who end up in office support leftwing policies. Moderate women struggle to win in either party as the rule, and it is hardest of all for conservative women because, for starters, far fewer of them run and they have more extremism working against them than for them. Personally, I do think there is a gender discrimination factor in that it is easier for an unlikable man to win than an unlikable woman, and I think it is also true that it is easier for an older man to win than an older woman. Some would argue this is a cultural thing and maybe so, but I think some of that is hardwired.
anjypanjy Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #4
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:08-11-2018 03:30:41Copy HTML

QZ, why would those same factors not apply in, say, Iran?
govols Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #5
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:08-11-2018 03:55:28Copy HTML

Iran is a weird monster. The power lies with the guardian council, 6 clerics and 6 judges. No action of parliment becomes and enactment except on approval of the council. I have no idea if any women have ever served.

Doe_Eyes Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #6
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:08-11-2018 04:03:44Copy HTML

I wonder if it's because even though society has evolved, women are still the primary care givers to children and until they feel they have accomplished what needs to be accomplished with their children, they don't feel they have the time to devote to other endeavors, even when those endeavors can help children in the long run, by affecting policies? So, maybe we just have to be patient while society continues to evolve and women become more policy makers and not just the recipients of policies made. Are children the pivotal factor?
Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #7
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:08-11-2018 04:05:01Copy HTML

Women do what they want. If they want to fly planes to support the war effort, drive rivets,, or play baseball they do. Women take advantage of opportunity the same as men, and they bow to the boss the same as men. Gender has advantages for men and women that are unfair, especially if they are easy on the eye. It’s global. We should stop thinking that we’re better than everyone else. We're just as good. Family. Apple pie.
Doe_Eyes Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #8
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:08-11-2018 04:07:20Copy HTML

I was just reading an article about Iranian education where they put a quota system in place for certain fields of study because women were taking up the incoming classes at universities 2 to 1, but were less likely to work in those fields after graduation, after marriage and children. https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/are-iranian-women-overeducated/
govols Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #9
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:08-11-2018 04:30:40Copy HTML

Well, that helps explain women in Iran's parliament. One requirement is a master's degree. 2:1 attend college, and then don't do the jobs, possibly instead standing for election?
Yobbo Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #10
  • From:New_zealand

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:08-11-2018 07:01:47Copy HTML

I presume that NZ is included in the Pacific group.  

That proportion is very low for the Pacific but NZ certainly helps to make the numbers better than they would otherwise be;  NZ's figure is 38% women Members of Parliament - with the Prime Minister being one of them.

"Les hommes ne font jamais le mal si complètement et joyeusement que lorsqu'ils le font par conviction religieuse." Blaise Pascal
cathymv Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #11
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:08-11-2018 08:17:52Copy HTML

women in this country have the same opportunity to run for office as any other american. What is the problem?
anjypanjy Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #12
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:08-11-2018 10:21:45Copy HTML

That's exactly the question, Cathy. Why are we on part with Arab nations and way down on the list? Women in all of those countries have the babies too last I checked. :P Vols' theory makes some sense to me but still doesn't quite explain it completely I don't think.
jackie_rn Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #13
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:08-11-2018 10:26:58Copy HTML

Whatever the problem was, looks like Democratic women are fixing it.
mickeyrat Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #14
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 02:07:43Copy HTML

I think a large part of the problem is that the evangelicals and harder line protestants in this nation don't believe that women are equal to men therefore aren't even going to consider voting them. And because they represent such a large part of the Republican base, it makes no sense to run as a conservative women. People may not have liked Carly Fiorina, but she was umpteen times more qualified than Trump, and she was out like that.

For Democrats, Minority Women Are the Ideal Candidates


https://morningconsult.com/2018/09/13/for-democrats-minority-women...

Currently, there are 84 women serving in the House. More than 4 in 5 House Republicans are white men, compared with 2 in 5 House Democrats.



I think that speaks volumes.


From elsewhere,


 in races where a non-incumbent woman is going toe-to-toe with a non-incumbent man, Republican women fare significantly worse: Just over one-third of those women (34 percent) win their primary, while more than two-thirds of Democratic women do (69 percent).

https://www.salon.com/2018/08/28/the-year-of-the-woman-in-electoral-politics-maybe-so-but-not-for-republicans/

So Republican women win half as often as Democratic women in their own primaries. That tells us, I think, where the problem is: not in the nation in general, but in the general unwillingness of Republican voters to vote for a women. Is there a single conservative woman on this site who supported Carly?

I don't think so.


I think that if conservative males were as willing to vote for females as are Democrat males, we would see the US rank up there with the rest of the world.

~Oh, I wish it would rain.~ --The Temptations
mickeyrat Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #15
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 02:14:15Copy HTML

 

Also, I checked out Israel's Knesset, because with the highly religious element in Israeli politics, even as in our own, I thought that women would be underrepresented there as well, and, in fact, they are...



Women’s Representation in the Knesset: Is it Sufficient?


https://en.idi.org.il/articles/6742

If public opinion polls are accurate and the election forecasts are correct, the upcoming Knesset will have a record number of women MKs. Nonetheless, the percentage of women in the Knesset is lower than that found in the parliaments of most other established democracies. IDI researcher Dr. Ofer Kenig provides an overview of the situation.


While I can understand that culturally some countries are not as advanced, and weight their results accordingly, Israel is about as western a nation it is possible to find OUTSIDE the west, about as well educated as can be found in non-western nations...yet they still lag behind in female participation in their democratic institutions. Why? Because like the Dominionists and the Evangelicals here, the religious patriarchy makes it unlikely that a woman will win a race, so parties don't make an effort to reach out to the best and brightest of the women because they know men will STILL vote against them out of sexist impulse.


~Oh, I wish it would rain.~ --The Temptations
_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #16
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 06:04:22Copy HTML

Is there a single conservative woman on this site who supported Carly?

I don't think so.



I did.  Carly was my first choice in the GOP field, by a wide mile.   



Question...do you even know any evangelical conservative women?  I am laughing myself silly that you actually believe they don't think women are equal and yada yada yada.  You do know it is 2018, not 1818, right?   


I think it is a huge blind spot of the left to not grasp that in the main, the right does not have the same drive to "do something" by way of government that the left does.  Our ideology is based on the individual, not the collective.  I would no more serve in government than jump off a bridge because I'd much rather run my own business and help those in my family and community where I can actually make a difference.      

_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #17
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 06:10:36Copy HTML

QZ, why would those same factors not apply in, say, Iran?


This is what my link detailed, and I'm sorry I don't remember the specifics enough to do them justice.  But education (as someone already noted), economic particulars, demographic imbalances, and government structure all played a part.  In short, it isn't an apple to apples comparison, nor is there any single factor anywhere.    

anjypanjy Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #18
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 01:35:08Copy HTML

Somewhat related, are any of you familiar with the Bechdel test? "The Bechdel Test, sometimes called the Mo Movie Measure or Bechdel Rule is a simple test which names the following three criteria: (1) it has to have at least two women in it, who (2) who talk to each other, about (3) something besides a man." Most moves fail it. I guess I'm just pondering women's voices, or maybe lack thereof, in general.
_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #19
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 02:33:41Copy HTML

Somewhat related, are any of you familiar with the Bechdel test? "The Bechdel Test, sometimes called the Mo Movie Measure or Bechdel Rule is a simple test which names the following three criteria: (1) it has to have at least two women in it, who (2) who talk to each other, about (3) something besides a man." Most moves fail it. I guess I'm just pondering women's voices, or maybe lack thereof, in general.



I am and in fact my daughter and I were just talking about this.   However, in context, Hollywood often portrays men as insipid and weak OR brutish and boorish, children as mature and wise, and so on.  I'm not sure one can make the case that their portrayals only impact women negatively.   I do think entertainment, on the whole, is virtue signalling minus actual virtue.  Too many movies or TV shows portray vapid shallow people making terrible decisions, after which they make more terrible decsions to fix their original terrible decisions.  I'm not convinced either gender comes out looking any better than the other. 

Doe_Eyes Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #20
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 03:41:32Copy HTML

That's exactly the question, Cathy. Why are we on part with Arab nations and way down on the list? Women in all of those countries have the babies too last I checked. :P Vols' theory makes some sense to me but still doesn't quite explain it completely I don't think.



Do they have services that support working mothers?  Like affordable daycare?  I'm just asking, I haven't researched it and don't have the time to right now.  But if these other countries have services that allow both parents to work outside the home without being financially burdened, then I would think that maybe the women would choose careers in the public sector, to benefit their families more, by being a part of the process that make policies that would do so.  

Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #21
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 04:51:12Copy HTML

Women Don’t Ask. by Linda Babcock and Sara Laschever QZ saying she’d rather be where she can make a difference is an example. In other words, for whatever reason, women count themselves out. They should all join the military before or after college so they learn early in their lives to never count yourself out. Actually, military service embraces the country for all its diversity with the common goal of protecting our ways of life. Every entity outside of that one, including public school, polarizes us, pretty much like only men were drafted back in the day, but at least they were likely to influence the women they married and their children. Maybe, women don’t ask because they don’t want to. Some obviously want it and go after it, given the recent election results.
Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #22
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 05:06:08Copy HTML

Women who made different, not necessarily better, decisions.

First of all, are they capable of getting anything done, a question that applies to men as well as women?  These women seem to have convinced some voters


image.jpeg


What goes around, comes around.
Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #23
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 05:45:42Copy HTML

Have any of you served in an elected office? I served four years on the city council with two other women in the early 90’s.  They were petty bitches who gave me nothing but grief.   I’ve been annoyed by men who when I ask them a question related to an issue, they smiled and dodged it.  Then they called my husband.  He would relate they concerns and answers, and I would ponder what century we were in.  Our community is made up largely of descendants of the Confederacy, and the charm of southern grace has been passed down, among other less desirable aspects, despite so many generations since the Civil War.   They are few, old, and dying, I can accommodate what can’t be changed. I am different when it comes to the young men and women who perpetuate gender inequality, own each other like baggage who I’d like to think can change.  YWCA posters about domestic violence suggest I may be wrong...at least for now.  Lollipops.

_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #24
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 06:34:15Copy HTML

In other words, for whatever reason, women count themselves out.  They should all join the military before or after college so they learn early in their lives to never count yourself out.



I personally know more than a few vets, male and female, who count themselves out of ever holding government office because of their service so I'm afraid I don't find your argument convincing.  Not that I don't hold that military service can add value and perspective, because I would agree it does.  But I hold to view that women are equal to men AND different from men AND all individuals, so assuming they should be doing anything in comparable numbers to men or representative of their demographic number or within or without cultural gender norms is a premise I reject.


Additionally, the left can crow all they want about seeing more female representation in their party, but that is belied by the fact they have NO tolerance for women who THINK differently than they do, and no qualms about chewing up and spitting out and demeaning woman in government who aren't one of their own.  It is interesting, in an insane sort of way, watching lesbians and transgenders fight over whether vaginas matter, while their allied feminists can't figure out if having vaginas makes them superior to men or victims of men.  Similarly I'm watching the far left espousing the hijab as a sign of female empowerment, along with rights for sex workers, along with espousing we must believe all women except for the ones making substantiated charges against the men we need to vote for our agenda.    I could on and on, but suffice to say the examples that bear out the conflicting twaddle of second and third wave feminism is endless. 


I'm sorry, but as a woman and a mother of three daughters and one granddaughter, more of these women in power is not heartening on the whole.  I view the increase as a positive in concept, similarly to when Obama won, in that it is progress of one kind to be sure.  But progress into what goal or outcome?  I care more about the second question.  

Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #25
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 06:41:26Copy HTML

Not exactly in the government, but certainly involved in changing it:


What goes around, comes around.
Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #26
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 07:01:07Copy HTML

“I hold to view that women are equal to men AND different from men AND all individuals, so assuming they should be doing anything in comparable numbers to men or representative of their demographic number or within or without cultural gender norms is a premise I reject.”. ~ QZ Agreed. The Women Marines isn’t for everyone, it worked out great for me. I understood the needs of our beloved Corps, so I didn’t whine when husband did back to back tours unaccompanied. I also understood the Corps was better than some of those in it, so I stood in front of a staff sergeant’s desk, the wife of a Lance Corporal, telling him repeatedly that he could keep my deployed husband’s ComRats or his Chow Pass, but he couldn’t have them both, until the First Sergeant came out of his office and told the SSgt to give me the ComRats and the SSgt said, Yes, Sir! Circa 1964. Sorry, trips through memories seem prevalent around Thanksgiving.....Pumpkin pie.
_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #27
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 07:22:37Copy HTML

 QZ saying she’d rather be where she can make a difference is an example. In other words, for whatever reason, women count themselves out. 



Just to put a little more meat on these bones, I count myself as choosing a better way FOR ME to do what is most important to ME in a MORE effective way than government service.  It is my view that the government I have at every level currently should do less than it does, not more. Why in the world would I want to waste my time and effort being perpetually outvoted, assuming I could ever get elected with my particular druthers where I live which I couldn't.  Many times I have had debates here with those on the left asking for my policy plan on how the government should "fix something", when in fact I don't support government "fixing" that problem which government likely created in the first place.  I do believe government has a necessary role to be sure, but we are so far past necessary into harmful that I don't think it is even possible to untangle the mess at this point.   We are literally chasing after the unintended consequences of past policies, actually thinking "more of the same" is the solution.  


I am not IN government BY CHOICE, not because I do not consider myself only capable of lesser aspirations, but because I don't consider it a higher aspiration in first place.  I'm not demeaning those who run for office, I'm simply rejecting the construct that I think less of myself (or any woman) because "no thanks" is somehow a lesser choice.  ONE of the ways I spend my time is tutoring adults who are functionally illiterate, and I am far more successful in doing so for far less cost in far less time than the public schools they attended for 12 years.  I have demonstrably changed these lives for the better, along with their families, which no amount of passing bills amounting to throwing good money after bad will do in the schools that failed them.  I believe in public education so don't misunderstand me.  But I do not believe the way we are doing it is serving us well, particularly in my city and state, so I'm going to do something about it where you are never going to know my name, nor will I ever get rich by jumping in bed with special interests, and I will never make the cover of any magazine or list of "influential women".  But that doesn't mean I'm not.  

_QZ_ Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #28
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 07:31:42Copy HTML

“I hold to view that women are equal to men AND different from men AND all individuals, so assuming they should be doing anything in comparable numbers to men or representative of their demographic number or within or without cultural gender norms is a premise I reject.”. ~ QZ Agreed. The Women Marines isn’t for everyone, it worked out great for me.  I understood the needs of our beloved Corps, so I didn’t whine when husband did back to back tours unaccompanied.  I also understood the Corps was better than some of those in it, so I stood in front of a staff sergeant’s desk, the wife of a Lance Corporal, telling him repeatedly that he could keep my deployed husband’s ComRats or his Chow Pass, but he couldn’t have them both, until the First Sergeant came out of his office and told the SSgt to give me the ComRats and the SSgt said, Yes, Sir! Circa 1964. Sorry, trips through memories seem prevalent around Thanksgiving.....Pumpkin pie.



I think you and I agree more than we may differ, but both of us are examples of strong women making their own choices. 

Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #29
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 08:00:20Copy HTML

In a long ago thread, someone nominated you for President. Once in office it’s astonishing how little control you have. You’re basically there to take the beating from the public that the staff so richly deserves for their recommendations and the rubber stamping of others who ignored your argument. Then staff makes you look bad at every opportunity, so you won’t get re-elected. I read their professional journals at the university library, and used some of it at council meetings .....some amazement, some fear, some doesn’t matter, I’ll be here long after she’s gone....lol. After four years, the plaque is in closet somewhere, and frankly I should have gotten a college degree for a love me wall, I had learned so much. So, no regrets.....Thank the heavens I was not re-elected. Whenever over the years since, someone asks me to run for council again, I say, After the other 30,000 people in the city try it, I will. Choices, we all have them, and so long as we don’t whine about our self inflicted misery, no one should complain or degrade us for our decisions which suit us best in this a supposedly free country.
govols Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #30
  • From:USA

Re:Women in government

Date Posted:09-11-2018 08:09:02Copy HTML

I would like to see more conservative and classical liberal women in politics. I know they exist in greater numbers than are represented, but I’m not sure where they all wind up. I’ve worked with some, and I’m married to one…are they simply doing more productive and meaningful stuff than attempting to govern policy? That’s one of the things that drives me nuts about diversity and politics. We NEED the perspective diversity in politics that would come from various sub-cultural and sexual (is sexuality a sub-culture in itself?) contributions, but we also NEED viewpoint diversity among the “under-represented” who find their way into government. That’s where things are screwed up right now. If all of the diversity is on either the left or the right, it doesn’t contribute to viewpoint diversity.

The major viewpoints in politics are “How can public policy and government action fix this problem?” and “What role did public policy and government action have in causing this problem and how can we undo it?” From BOTH of those two viewpoints we need the perspectives of the various bunches of people who experience the problems differently. There are quite enough white men within the latter viewpoint and quite enough perspectives represented among the former.

One of the reasons the left has so much “diversity” is that the right—to the extent they’ll listen at all—is willing to listen to the leftist viewpoint from any perspective it’s presented, but the left “Uncle Toms” or “Vagina traitors” any on the right who try to bring their diversity of perspective to the viewpoint. Women and minorities aren’t excluded from the conversation between right and left by the right, but by the left. 


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